are high kicks practical for self defense

[Allen M.]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

A very good way to train shin kicks full power, is to take down your bag, prop it on the floor with someone holding it, and slams kicks home at close range.

I remember when you started teaching shin kicks at the TC, Van. everyone exhibited weak shin kicks at first, even those whom I considered were decent low-kickers, until they got into the groove.

From my younger years, I remember my legs felt weak, sometimes like cooked pasta, once. I didn't know anything about kicking then and it was probably a good thing because 100% concentration was given to hit and keep from being hit using the hands, arms and waist and the only foot movements were a little bit of shuffling. I probably couldn't have lifted a foot to do a kick of any kind of power when that happened.

The weak leg thing didn't happen often and was entirely unpredictable, and don't think I was different than most everyone else.


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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited March 04, 2002).]

[Tony-San]

Van taught me this kick also and I practice it regularly both front and rear drive (a guy I train with calls this technique "uchi momo"). To train the hip, I like to keep the ball of the foot im kicking with on the floor and slam into the bag with pure hip rotation.

[Glenn]

Although I don't recommend high kicks in self defense, for reasons already mentioned, I don't doubt that there are people out there who can make them work. The trick, I've heard, is that you never start your assault with a head kick. You have to convincingly open your opponent up for it...and then be able to follow the opening up with a powerful, accurate kick.

I also agree that when attacking your opponent's legs, it's far more effective to hit with your shin than with the top of your foot. It can be less damaging to you too, as your shin can take a lot more than the top of your foot can.

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

[Glenn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by uglyelk:
I saw a guy try to throw a high spinning kick in a bar fight a few years back. He caught his knee on one of those stand up tables that are mounted around suport beams.

He went down like a ton of bricks. His advisary fed him boots until the bouncer got there. The guy took about six in the face.

He learned a couple of things that day.

Laird<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was an article in a magazine, Black Belt I believe, many years ago that related a similar story. The author said he was in a bar fight and tried a high kick when a table got in the way. At that point he said all his strategy and martial arts training went out the window as his opponent tackled him and it became an untechnical brawl. The author said he won the fight only after hitting his opponent over the head with a chair. So much for years of training. He said after that he immediately modified how he trained and taught.

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

[Ian]

Re: legs being stronger and twice as long, this is true in some senses. For example, at waist level vs shoulder level legs ARE longer, but if you draw a leg-long circle from the hip, you see you have to get pretty close to kick something head level. At the extreme, straight up, it gets you zero range. And that means you're close enough to be dangling your goands, if yours are external, well within reach. Your knee at a minimum. Plus, you lose the ability to control distance wellwhen you miss a high kick. You do your triple axel; they lean back, then charge in while you're on one leg. What good the distance do you after that?

With strength, it also depends on height. If well braced, a leg and therefore kick can be stronger than an arm/punch. And yet, we move a fridge by driving leg strength into it THRU the arms--not by putting a leg on it and pushing. Think about how much weaker that would feel in practice. THEN think about how well you could push a fridge over with your legs at head height.

[Cecil]

"He said after that he immediately modified how he trained and taught."

I try to tell kids that karate is supposed to ADD to what you'd do naturally, not become a replacement for it. And, I tell them that if it's easier to just deck the person in the face than it is to do a take down, by all means, deck 'em.

[Tony-San]

What about high kicks to the head from the rear of the person, e.g. you get to someones back?

[Cecil]

"Are roundhouse kicks to the head to dangerous to attempt in a street situation"

In High School I got kicked in the head---I think it was a crescent kick---the only reason why it did not work was because the guy did not keep up his flow. I was already dazed. He kicked me and was landing a ton of beautiful punches. I was practically finished off until he stopped for a second to marvel at how good of a job he was doing. He smirked and bounced. That one window was all I needed to shake off his attacks, throw him into a wall and down on the floor, where I kept hitting him and hitting him until the principal grabbed me.

I would not "try" to do any technique in a fight. I'd just let my body and the Frog Brain do what it thinks work best. Frog Brog can work pretty well at times. It let me get off some chest-level roundhouse kicks in a fight before.

When you kick, nobody uses the toes of their shoes? Shoes hurt, don't they? Why use the top of your foot then? What about that side part of the shoe bottom?

Probably, if you train your kicks with real shoes on--including dress shoes at times--you MAY have a better chance of your skills working. Ever practice in street clothes? That will change your prospective.

[jdoub]

Van Canna-sensei,

I have been away from the forum, but have lurked every now and again. Nice thread and some great posts.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
What was significant was his statement that his high kicks would not work under the adrenaline dump; all he could do were the front kick and the low kicks to the legs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found this comment most interesting. While it is a stretch, it could also be that his brain (which often does things for us that we take for granted; breathing) had simply provided the "simple" solutions that would keep his legs, and body, away from the sharp object. It is just a thought...

It has been my experience in and out of the military and on the street (and in the bars), that high kicks are better left in the movies and in demonstrations.

Cheers.

John

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John E. Doub, Jr.
Heiwa-Ryu Martial Arts Academy http://www.heiwa-ryu.org/
"It is a way of life, not a sport."

[This message has been edited by jdoub (edited March 05, 2002).]

[Allen M.]

Everytime Soeul college students go on a rampage, newsclips are full of student demonstrators doing all sorts of high and flying ineffective and useless kicks against the police. Sure the police are covered with the armor of the day, but one would expect at least a few of those kicks to do at least a little something.

I wonder what the thinking is about doing high kicks in a fight? one-on-one? two-on-one? or more than that- on-one?

Surely if there is more than one-on-one, one really wouldn't want to risk get caught up in the air?



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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[Glenn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:
Everytime Soeul college students go on a rampage, newsclips are full of student demonstrators doing all sorts of high and flying ineffective and useless kicks against the police. Sure the police are covered with the armor of the day, but one would expect at least a few of those kicks to do at least a little something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But remember, those high and flying kicks are for knocking mounted soldiers off of their horses...I'm sure they'd do much better if the police were on horseback!

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

[TSDguy]

Oh come on. Lack of power is not the reason flying side kicks aren't a good choice for street fighting. If you don't believe me, stand still while I run across the room and drop kick you and tell me if it hurts.

[Allen M.]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

But remember, those high and flying kicks are for knocking mounted soldiers off of their horses...I'm sure they'd do much better if the police were on horseback!

That's right. I forgot about the horses. Maybe the police were just standing in a good Sanchin stance

I know the power of a flying kick with a running start. But like Cecil says, it's situational. All of it is situational anyway. But before launching one for keeps, make sure it'll do the job.




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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[Shaolin]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TSDguy:
Oh come on. Lack of power is not the reason flying side kicks aren't a good choice for street fighting. If you don't believe me, stand still while I run across the room and drop kick you and tell me if it hurts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Setting flying kicks on one side for a moment... Generally, the higher one must raise his foot the harder it is to generate power. Most people can put more power out at lower, say knee or groin level, which is more useful in any case.

Jim

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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

[Glenn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:
[QUOTE]I know the power of a flying kick with a running start. But like Cecil says, it's situational. All of it is situational anyway. But before launching one for keeps, make sure it'll do the job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TSDguy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was being sarchastic by pointing out that you'd have to stand still while he got that running start from across the room. But it works against bad guys in the movies...they stand still for it...it should work for me too...right?

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE