Descendents of Shushiwa

[Bill Glasheen]

Damn, that's the nicest display of Goju Suparinpei that I've seen.

It pisses me off that there are people walking around in life who are that good!

There are a lot of "interesting" elements in it, Jim.

Here's something for the Uechika to look at.

1) Goju people do their morote tsuki (double thrust) differently from Uechi Ryu. In Goju they use palm heel. They aim almost high/low on the center line, and have a fully supinated lower hand. In Uechi they use a boshiken (thumb fist), have targets closer together and a little more lateral, and the lower hand is pronated 90 degrees so that the fingers are out rather than down. (The two hands are 90 degrees from each other)

2) Generally the Goju people do their circle blocks much closer to the body than the Uechi folks. This guy did not. I like it! Great mechanics.

3) Notice the dynamic range of speed in this form vs. the way you typically see most Uechika do their forms. Why is that? (Hint: There's a damn good reason why, and the Uechika who haven't figured it out are missing out on half their style.)

4) There's a Seichin-like movement in the form that one similarly sees in Goju Seisan after the first 90-degree turn. There's a video of that in the Non-Uechi Seisan thread. The fellow doing the Goju Seisan in the other thread got it right. This gentleman is missing a subtle grab (a la Seichin) after the hand pronation. As a Uechika, I could show him a few things...

5) There's a movement in this form (one palm forward and the other back and down) which is also in the Fuzhou Suparinpei I teach but not anywhere in Kanbun's "big three" kata. Check it out. I've always wondered what that damn move was... In any case, I find it fascinating that it's also in the Fuzhou Suparinpei. (For those who do the form, it's just before dropping down cross-legged and doing a shoken to the floor.)

6) And finally... Note how nicely this fellow does movement WITH the turns. This is the way Uechi kata SHOULD be done. There is much meaning and intent to that.

Interesting stuff... Beautiful kata.

Still pisses me off.

- Bill

[mikemurphy]

Let me try again and I'll put the word quote around lines that are not mine. I haven't quite learned the the "quote" button yet. Not enough desire I guess. I have always just used the <>. But, I'll try and separate it a little.



Bill,

A little defensive are we?

Bill's QUOTE:
Let's start with the following obvious point that needs to be called. I know of no gentleman by the name of "Mr. Lahey." Mr. Campbell repeatedly refers to a gentleman by the name of Mr. Lahey. Lahey most definitely is a valid name; it exists in my phone book. However nobody other than Mr. Campbell has spoken of anyone by this name in this thread. So this begs the following questions.

1) Is Mr. Campbell confused, or perhaps not a very good typer? It happens; been there, done that. SpellCheck isn't going to be much good here.

2) If Mr. Campbell is not confused and intentionally spelled this name in this manner, then what's up? Is this an individual nobody has yet referred to in this discussion or is there a reason why Lahey does not look like Lailey when push comes to shove?
END OF QUOTE

Isn't this little nudge a bit below you? You certainly know who sensei Campbell meant. There was no need to sink to this patrinization.


Bill's QUOTE:
Originally posted by Mike Murphy

Personally, from the history I have seen, if there is a superempei in our style, it hasn't been found yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You too, Murphy Sensei. You're the school teacher; you have no excuse! Share your "history" with us.
END OF QUOTE

Did you read the line at all? It says from the history I've seen. This goes to 30 years in Uechi and the reading of many of the same people you have read (from Uechi backgrounds or not). Do you require a list of them Bill? I don't believe I shall offer any excuses for such a simple statement to understand. Obviously, this is opinion and extremely subjective, as this entire topic is.

Bill's QUOTE:
Gentlemen if we want to discuss history and challenge the conventional wisdom, well do it right or go home! Nobody here is afraid of a little paradigm shift. But there will be no shifting if there are no facts or data to consider.
END OF QUOTE


What are the hardcore facts that you refer to in regards to Kanbun Uechi and the allusive 4th kata? Inquiring minds want to know.


Bill's QUOTE"
Originally posted by Mike Murphy

Darin Yee sensei shows different Chinese forms all the time in which he shows me the "Uechi" in them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First... Darin's a good man, and we often think alike. Second... I can show you Uechi in both aikido and Wing Chun. But in doing so, I would never pretend to think that they came from a common origin that is close by in history.
END OF QUOTE

This is what I'm talking about. You can make anything "Uechi" if you like. What does that mean, that everything is of Uechi history? I don't think so.

Bill's QUOTE:
I don't recall you being in any of my Fuzhou Suparinpei classes, Mike. If you had, I would have shown you the many similarities between this form Simon taught me and "the big three" of Uechi. I would also have shown you a couple of moves that are only in the "bridge" kata of Uechi Ryu, and challenge you to think about where those "new" Uechi moves came from. It doesn't prove anything, but it does make the mind race a bit.
END OF QUOTE


Do you recall all of the students you have taught at the summer camp? Sorry to correct you Bill, but I was there at several of your sessions and ran through the entire thing. AND, you did show the class what you considered similarities. To be honest with you, I didn't buy it then, nor do I buy it now. That's no insult to you Bill. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want, but don't expect to sell the entire Uechi world on what you consider to be these similarities to be. Just my opinion here.


Bill's QUOTE:
I would also be happy to teach you Tsuzkenshitahaku no sai and Hamahiga no tonfa. And I'd be happy to show you "Seisan" ideas throughout those two forms. (It's one reason I teach them in my class.) And we all know that these both are very old, classic kobudo forms.
END OF QUOTE


Once again, my point. You can find anything you wish to find if you look hard enough. I could find you good Uechi in my jujitsu, or just in good grappling. I could show you good Uechi in Iaido, Kendo, or Judo. It just doesn't mean that much in the long run when you are speaking of style-specific history.


Bill's QUOTE:
<Originally posted by Mike Murphy

if there is a superempei in our style, it hasn't been found yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Had you taken one of my Fuzhou Suparinpei classes, Mike, you would have known that I agree and therefore your statement was not necessary.
END OF QUOTE


Sorry Bill, but I don't remember you saying that, but I'll ask the three or four students of mine who also attended it and see if they remember.


Bill's QUOTE:
As I repeatedly discuss when teaching this form, Simon tells me that there is a core form that most people more or less follow. However individuals in the class (as Simon related) often did their own versions, and the master really never objected very much. This is very much like the PRC crane master that George brought to Thompson Island circa 1985. That man did his crane form different every time he did it, and I saw him demo it perhaps a half dozen times through the camp. He taught us a skeleton, but he never did his form this way.
END OF QUOTE


There is also the possibility that the man was not that good. Maybe he kept forgetting it? It's possible. Bill, as a researcher, you would have to accept this as a possibility, wouldn't you? Just how well did you know the man and his practice? I would question you using him as a source.


Bill's QUOTE:
IF and ONLY IF the form I teach somehow can be connected all the way back to the same Suparinpei that Kanbun allegedly saw in China some time between 1897 and 1910, well the likelihood that I am doing it exactly like the way Kanbun saw it is the same likelihood that George is wearing pinstripe suits and riding around with a tommy gun.
END OF QUOTE

The key word is "allegedly," but I do agree with the rest.


Bill's QUOTE:
If that is true, then some critics of "Mr. Lahey" have some explaining to do.
END OF QUOTE


Once again, bad form and bad taste. You are better than that Bill.

mike

[Stryke]

Bill i`m amazed how you constantly impy that I dont think folks have the right to charge for there work .

I think you missed the entire substance of my request .

Never a need to be defensive .

you keep ranting about copyright , i`m after something completely different , just someone performing the said kata .

I was under the impression the said footage was an instructional tape , something altogether different .

Sorry that you feel openess would affect sales . Mystery must be a great enticement .

your own logic defies you , You cite a proffessional video , of great standard , you cite encouraging folks to openly share the kata .

I fail to see how a request via the only direct medium available to me at this point (video WMV MPEG etc) would be contrary to that .

All I hope is that folks will take you on your initial position and freely share there interpretations of this form .

If anything I would think this would increase sales of the only (to my knowledge) proffessional video done to date of this form .

If the kata is so good then it will stand and develop on it`s own merits , all the quicker for openess .

You will find yourself first at the the proverbial gravy train

so I`ll agree to disagree and consider the issue a touchy and closed one .

well do it right or go home! Nobody here is afraid of a little paradigm shift. But there will be no shifting if there are no facts or data to consider.

[CANDANeh]

I personally think the "Uechi version" of Supriempui (excuss spelling) will not attach itself to mainstream Uechi for a few reasons. If it is taught after Sansieryu the target students are sandan and above in most dojo and numbers are low. Most dojo owners do not know the kata and likely most have no intention to do so. Some feel the kata will be or may be eventually expossed as a fraud so why bother until the jury decides. Some feel it is long and movements difficult esp. if your of the more rigid variety of Uechi.
Myself? I`m expossed to the kata as my sensei performs it as part of his Uechi, it lives well in our dojo and would be more than suprissed to see it die. Yes...going to learn it and whether or not it becomes accepted Uechi or not it adds wonderful flavour to our system IF you like it.

Note: Just seen DNA thread, oh well there ya go.

[Rick Wilson]

No harm in learning it Leo and perhaps som learning there.

[CANDANeh]

No harm in learning it Leo and perhaps som learning there.

Hi Rick

Will take time to learn and never can be mastered

[John Giacoletti]

Hello Rick,

Early in this thread you mention Robert Campbell's reseach that ties Shushiwa to the White Lotus Society and the Boxer Rebellion.

Interesting note by the way: Bob Campbell’s research on Pwangainuun found it to be a sub-sect of the White Lotus Society and the Hong Kong police records show the head of this organization (at the time Kanbun was in China) to be Zhou Ze Her also written Cho Zen Ho, or in Japanese, Shushiwa.

So if he was the head of a secret society then it is not hard to see why we have trouble tracking anything at all down about him – he would not want to have been found.

Is this information available on the internet? I'd like to know if this association might have involved Uechi Kanbun and the circumstances under which he left China.

The Uechi Ryu Kyohon states pretty emphatically that he was burned out. That his dojo was raised by fire in the aftermath of the farmer's death by the hand of a Uechi student.

In addition to the questionable circumstances and subsequent stories regarding the death of the person, these volitile political situations may have contributed to the reluctance of Uechi Kanbun to return to China for additional training.

In regards to a published history of the origins and growth of Uechi-Ryu Karate Do, is a Uechi family member, Uechi Kanmei Sensei presumably, the detatched, third-party objective researcher and author whose point of view would be expected by an English speaking culture and readership to sort out these difficult and emotionally charged issues?

[Rick Wilson]

Hi John:

My understanding is that Bob is writing a book on the boxer rebellion and/or Uechi Kanbun’s time in China that will have all his research.

What I relate is my memory of Bob’s talk at the 1999 Summer Camp therefore any errors are in my memory. Interestingly the human memory is a very faulty storage devise. It has been shown that over time (even small periods) memory has a way of altering things to fit what we either perceive now or desire to perceive now. I should write a thread on a documentary I saw showing just how fallible human memory is.

A I recall Bob also mentioned that we should wonder why Uechi Kanbun came back to Okinawa disguised as Chinese. This may well relate to your question “if this association might have involved Uechi Kanbun and the circumstances under which he left China.”

I know I am all set to buy a copy the moment Bob’s book is available.

[Glenn]

I know I am all set to buy a copy the moment Bob’s book is available.

Rick,

Do you know if this will be a mass-market book or a limited-printing privately-published book as so many Uechi Ryu books are?

[Rick Wilson]

No sorry, I have no other information.

[Bill Glasheen]

bad form and bad taste. You are better than that Bill.

Actually I think in your eyes I'm the same person you've perceived me to be all along, Mike. Scary when you think about it...

It's all good. If I give you a reason to get excited about things in the world, then I've accomplished something noble.

A little defensive are we?

Actually I'm in the attack, attack, attack mode, no?

Isn't this little nudge a bit below you? You certainly know who sensei Campbell meant. There was no need to sink to this patrinization.

I said exactly what I meant to say, Mike, and in the exact manner that I intended. It's all about the facts, and not about personality.

And once again I respectfully ask you not to involve yourself. I consider this matter with you closed.

****

In reference to your opinion about the Fuzhou Suparinpei...

Obviously, this is opinion and extremely subjective, as this entire topic is.

Noted.

What are the hardcore facts that you refer to in regards to Kanbun Uechi and the allusive 4th kata?

Sarcasm duly noted.

Evidence of the existence of a fourth kata comes from the following sources:

1) Quotes from Toyama Sensei that I get passed to me through multiple intermediaries. As best as I can tell, Gordi tells me that Toyama Sensei understood (from Kanbun) that such a form exists. As I recall, Gordi was quite surprised to hear that when he asked.

2) There are several working translations of the Kyohon floating around these days. George got a chance to read one of them. He called me up (this was after I learned the Fuzhou Suparinpei) and told me there were multiple references to such a kata (whichever one it is) in this source. For whatever reason, the committee which put this book together (Uechi Kanei, Takamiyagi Shigeru et al) felt it important to document its existence in myriad ways.

In addition to those sources...

3) There are techniques in the bridge kata which do not exist in The Big Three. Where did they come from? Some - like the "Uechi side kick" - are not ones readily found in Okinawan karate. There are others, such as interesting ones found in Seichin. So... Don't you think I found it interesting that I found some of these "oddball" techniques in the form Simon taught me? (Wherever the heck that came from...)

4) There are whole sequences in the Fuzhou Suparinpei that accomplish the exact same thing as sequences found in Uechi Seisan, only another way to think of the same thing. It's like the opening of Kanshu and of Seiryu. If you didn't understand kata mechanics and/or application, you wouldn't appreciate the brilliance (or maybe mischievousness) of the choreographers of the opening of those two forms. If I was to spend 10 minutes with you, you MIGHT suddenly see something that perhaps you never thought of.

I can definitely tell that Kanshu and Seiryu were choreographed by the same people, and that they were trying very hard to "jumble the pieces" so we wouldn't get fixated on sequence or interpretation of kata. It's as if the choreographers were trying to evolve us from classical to jazz music. They were showing us new ways to think of the same thing, and suggesting we could do the same.

That's the "feel" of this form I practice vs. the Uechi system. But then I've been accused of being off my meds at times... There are many other scenarios that could explain the "feel" that the kata imparts to a mixed martial artist who knows all the Uechi kata.

5) There is a progression of the nature of sequences from Sanchin to Seisan to Sanseiryu (Uechi) to this new form I learned. One day I'll study all this stuff enough to be able to quantify it. But right now I'm relying on my "scientific intuition." It tells me that the three were leading up to a fourth form LIKE THIS ONE. Not necessarily this one, but LIKE this one. Once I learned to master this 3-minute sprint, it made me completely re-think how I generate energy in my Uechi kata.

THAT fits in with the circular nature of learning that the Uechi family preaches from their system. It fits.

This is evidence. Evidence in both science and the law suggest things. It isn't often in life that we are able to prove anything. Nobody could prove OJ cut his wife's neck, and a criminal court most certainly failed to do so. But we kind of had a hunch about it. And the truth is the truth irrespective of our perceptions, and how we use available evidence to construct them.

I can get specific, Mike. That's all I ask of others in such a discussion. We're here to learn.

"I disagree" is fine, but it doesn't enlighten us very much.

You can make anything "Uechi" if you like.

Yep... Guilty as charged. Mike K once called me "The Borg."

That's my personality, and the nature of the style. ENTPs see things that others don't. That's just how we tick.

I ****** at other things...

I was there at several of your sessions and ran through the entire thing.

Shows you how observant I am...

don't expect to sell the entire Uechi world on what you consider to be these similarities to be.

I don't intend to. I have something to offer people. They can choose to enjoy what I have to offer and consider my views of the Uechi world - or not.

It's all good in my book. I want others to think what they think and do their own thing. We'll compare notes at the end of the day.

And you sure as hell don't want a world full of Bill Glasheen clones...

As I repeatedly discuss when teaching this form, Simon tells me that there is a core form that most people more or less follow. However individuals in the class (as Simon related) often did their own versions, and the master really never objected very much. This is very much like the PRC crane master that George brought to Thompson Island circa 1985. That man did his crane form different every time he did it, and I saw him demo it perhaps a half dozen times through the camp. He taught us a skeleton, but he never did his form this way.

There is also the possibility that the man was not that good. Maybe he kept forgetting it? It's possible. Bill, as a researcher, you would have to accept this as a possibility, wouldn't you? Just how well did you know the man and his practice? I would question you using him as a source.

Wouldn't you know, Mike, that I am now involved in "benchmarking" some products which assess human behavior (resource consumption and quality of medical care), and determining "trim points" or outliers found in data that come from these projects.

To make a long story short, it's bad form to throw data out. It smacks of manipulating information to justify a weak or incomplete paradigm. As I found out when doing my dissertation, the real world is far more interesting than the world some like to make it out to be.

I tried replicating the work of a Harvard researcher published in Science, and found out after years of frustration that he had either lied or failed to look at the information right in front of him. He reached a conclusion that was the exact opposite of what my data were showing me. Then the more I looked, the more I realized that the real world was much more interesting with all the "messiness" of the data right in front of me. It spoke of mathematical chaos. It spoke of a real, fascinating, rarely predictable nonlinear world rather than the predictable linear world from which most derive comfort.

Simon seemed credible to me, Mike. I worked with him on multiple occasions, and saw a tape of him struggling with this form long before I learned it from him. I saw him after he allegedly took another trip back to China, and found out more.

One of two things seem apparent to me, Mike.

1) Simon is a brilliant choreographer, knows a lot about myriad nuances of Uechi Ryu, and weaves a really interesting story as well as false evidence to back it up.

or

2) Simon stumbled on something pretty interesting in China that seems to share "DNA" with stuff we do. And the form has a very "interesting" name.

I'm a proponent of Occam's Razor, Mike. The simple explanation is usually the best one.

In any case, the "story" of the very old teacher and his students who did the form many ways is an interesting one. I found it fascinating listening to what Simon told me about what "mattered" and what didn't. In Simon's words, he was beginning to think he was being "duped" when he saw the flux in the form, and that everyone was just making stuff up. Upon further questioning, he discovered a very interesting facet about the way (some) Chinese view their "art" vs. the way folks outside of China do.

Read George's article. This fits the picture.

And if you studied from the crane master on Thompson Island, you'd have experienced the same thing. And that master was better at doing forms that the both of us combined, Mike.

You like jazz, Mike? You like the Grateful Dead?

The key word is "allegedly,"

I've been most careful with my language all along, Mike.

- Bill

[cxt]

Bill

If I may be so bold as to add an inference to your above list.

Whatever the base for what is now "Uechi-ryu" it bears fundamental resemblence with other methods--such as Goju.

They are all form the pretty much the same region after all.

In fact several systems exsist that use many of the same kata--preformed in somewhat similar fashion.

(Even someone that knows next to nothing about martial arts will be able to see the Uechi, Goju, and Ryuei-Ryu versions of Seisan are "more" alike than the Shorin versions.)

That being the case, its resonable to conclude that if one is searching for a "missing" kata, the frist place to look would be the kata lists of other systems that share a similar origan.

Problem is that such an inference won't get you more than in the ballpark.

The kata lists between the "other" systems are no-where near "the same"--each has a somewhat different kata list.

[John Giacoletti]

Thanks, Rick. I knew the information in your quotation that follows but it's exactly the kind of information that's important.

A I recall Bob also mentioned that we should wonder why Uechi Kanbun came back to Okinawa disguised as Chinese. This may well relate to your question “if this association might have involved Uechi Kanbun and the circumstances under which he left China.”

Uechi Kanbun wanted to avoid the notice of the Japanese conscription authorities. He disquised himself as Chinese, spoke Chinese and withdrew for the most part from society making his living as a farmer. Although the Okinawans were sympathetic to his moral and political objections to warfare, he was in fact still regarded by the Japanese as a draft evader and a criminal. That's the "party line" expressed repeatedly in the 1977 Kyohon.

In addition, living as a Chinaman in Okinawa would not attract the attention of the Foochow authorities who may have had him on their investigative list as a revolutionary who stood against the government and was also involved in some degree with the murder of a Fukien province peasant. There were looking for an Okinawan martial arts master.

Both of the above reasons explain why Uechi Kanbun was unable to return to Nahsoe for further training with Shushiwa.

[John Giacoletti]

I find one of the quotes quite interesting, not only for what is said but what is revealed in the manner in which it is said:

Uechi Kanbun and Matsuda Tokusaburo

"entered into this style together. It was a daily test to see who could find the most useful application for each technique. The most difficult was in the use of tecniques in Superinpi."
-------------------------------------------------------------

You have here a 1st person witness who had personal knowledge of Kanbun Uechi and was sought out by the editors of the Kyohon. Matsuda Tokusaburo went with Kanbun to China and trained with him there. Tokusaburo returned to Okinawa in 1903, eight years prior to Kanbun and gained considerable recognition as a martial artist and halbard expert.

The meaning of the words is one factor: Kanbun had a hard time applying the techniques of Superinpi.

What is more reveling is the manner in which the meaning is stated:

The instructional method is revealed. Students are taught techniques from a Kata and learn to apply them. They are not taught the entire Kata as a thorough, complete sequential pattern.

Do you not recognize this as Shushiwa's teaching method? This is the method Uechi Kanbun adopted for teaching his students.It's called Jiyu Kobo and uses practical application of kata techniques for defensive purposes as taught in the Shuu Family System.

In an earlier post in this thread I presented more Kyohon information that made clear that Uechi Kanbun and Gokenkai the Naha Tea Merchant and Foochow native had long discussions on the use of Crane hand techniques and that Gokenkai had been a student of Kanbun Uechi in China as well as a student of Shushiwa. During Kanbun Uechi's period of isolation in Okinawa Gokenkai continued to make trips to study with Shushiwa every two years thereby providing a conduit for information between Master and Student.

As Bill has pointed out, the Fuzchow Superinpi is a catalog of Crane hand techniques.

We have no reason to doubt Toyama Sensei's remarks that Uechi Kanbun often mused that he wished he had had more time to learn Superinpi. He may have not learned it all but he did learn some and wished he had learned more.

There are not more reliable witnesses than Gokenkai and Tokusaburo and their accounts are accordingly presented in the Kyohon.

[fivedragons]

Bill, I didn't read any farther than when you said you where in the attack mode

Now that is Uechi.