Your applications for our more esoteric moves...

[IJ]

We can all figure out what to do with these motions if we only use parts of them... that's easier... but do we think they're supposed to be done together? I would assume so, why else would they be assembled?

The front hand "down circle" and rear hand "scoop" with leg lift first seen in seichin, and the down circle with wauke later on right before the elbow in long stance

The leg lift and wauke first seen x 4 in seiryu

The double circley thing at the end of kanchin, beginning of sanseiryu (usually billed as a block for a 1-2 punch)

I ask because I was watching the Ultimate Fighter (perhaps pre-ultimate fighters would be better) and someone pushing an opponent into the fence face to face reached in and behind their right leg with his left leg, and pulled backwards, then brought them down by pulling their right shoulder downward to where the missing leg should have been--looked like the "leg lift and wauke" from seiryu, and got me thinking.

On a related note... Bill, you like using transitions as techniques, any favorites to share?

[RACastanet]

Hello Ian. In MCMAP that move is called the 'Major Reap'. It can be inside or outside. I suspect the name came directly from some style of groundfighting. anyone out there able to clarify that or expand on it?

When executed properly the uke goes down very hard in a twisting fashion!

Rich

[a.f.]

http://212.168.61.53/vfb/abtjudo/loimages/ouchi.gif

Don't know if that's what you're describing.

If so, it's a judo throw called Ouchi Gari, meaning "Major inside reaping throw," which probably accounts for Rich's "major reap."

[RACastanet]

That's it. I have a video of it but it is part of the copywrited MCMAP instruction set and I am not allowed to post any of it.

Rich

[f.Channell]

The outside major reap is called O-soto gari.

http://www.judoinfo.com/quiz0297_3.htm

It is the most effective throw in competition. And I say that from records I've read keeping track of international competitions and the throws that win.

It appears in the yakusoku kumite from Shohei-ryu.

The other one has never worked for me in randori or competition, but it does for some.

F.

[RACastanet]

I like the outside version better as well.

We also have a sweeping hip throw that is very similar to the outside reap. The tripping leg is swept thru and raised as you do a hip throw. The arm position is the same as a hip throw. Properly executed the uke will come down on the head or upper neck instead of the back. Very nasty.

Rich

[RA Miller]

That would be Harai goshi, the sweeping hip throw.

Anu of the major hip or shoulder throws can be modified in the follow through to focus the landing on the neck, the point of the shoulder, flat (to knock the wind out) or to slam the tailbone.

Rory

[a.f.]

Another good one is Uchi mata, sweeping between the legs. Very popular.

F.Channel:

I like Osoto gari as well, but it doesn't work as well for short or light people (like me) as something like ippon seionage, because I don't have to sink as far as if I were taller. Also works nicely as a choke defense.

[f.Channell]

Hi A.F.
I'm short and light and I know what you mean.
I'm also getting old and slow so Seoi nage is tough for me now too.
Look around for different versions of O soto gari and maybe you'll find one to work for you. Uchi mata is another tall guy throw.

I wonder Rory after years of throwing people to land on their back if I would have the presence of mind to throw them down painfully.
I suppose part of that is not knowing how to take the fall.
Hopefully they won't.

F.

[Van Canna]

O soto gari and Uchi mata were my most favorite in my days of judo.

I still find them easy to blend into my Uechi with tenshin moves.

[a.f.]

Uchi mata is another tall guy throw.

That's why I ****** at it.

O soto gari and Uchi mata were my most favorite in my days of judo.

Arrgh! You big people have it so easy

[f.Channell]

I know a couple of guys shorter than me who do uchi-mata well.
I watch over and over and can't figure out why they can and I can't do it!

F.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, you like using transitions as techniques, any favorites to share?

My favorite is the 225-degree turn from a horse into a Sanchin dachi in Sanseiryu, followed by a simple Sanchin nukite thrust. Most people don't have a clue what it is, and it shows when they do their kata.

As I always tell folks, consider the context. It starts by charging inside someone's space. You are deep in the eye of the hurricane in the fight. This works particularly well for someone with strong legs who understands how to use the vertical movement so prevalent in Sanseiryu kata. Picture yourself having just elbowed inside, and in bad breath range. Drop down while holding onto the inside of their right arm with your left wauke, and duck underneath the right arm. When you pop back up with a 225-degree turn, you are on a back angle with their right arm in a controlling position, and you are staring right at the triple warmer (base of the ear). If you do the sanchin nukite, it points right at where you want to hit them to finish them off.

- Bill

[IJ]

The throw on the show was much like the first sequence of pictures posted by af, although the uke was turned and fell "toward the camera."

Thanks Bill and others... I do need some Judo class but definitely want to understand our more esoteric moves better as well... so who has favorite techniques from them?

I remember one for the seichin motion that I think I learned in part on the forums--if you're doing the first one, with the left arm making the downward "reverse wauke" then it goes like this, if you are facing the badguy (keeping in mind that anei Uechi, in the videos from '64 or so, has a wauke like motion with the other arm that I've seem some omit since):

The right wauke motion may hit the right side of their neck, then wraps around, pulling the head forward and down, until the left hand comes from above to take over pushing down. The right hand then comes underneath the neck and does the lifting motion ending horizontal effecting a guillotine. The knee raise ends up right in their face.

[Bill Glasheen]

"Hawk chases sparrow" - the double circle move of Seichin taken from Sanseiryu - is a great setup for a rear naked choke if done sequentially. IF you practice it, you can have a kicking attacker blacking out before they know what happened to them.

1) Catch a kick on the "outside" with the upward scoop. (sukui age uke)

2) Switch over to the other arm with the downward scoop (harai sukui uke) and spin the person.

Conversely if the person is large or if you move well, use the downard scoop to push off the leg and then just scootch on around and behind the attacker. (Think of this as the transitional turn before the second Sechin hawk chases sparrow.)

3) Grab the person from behind with the hand used to scoop in #1 above. Use a foot to buckle the knee from behind (the crane leg movement) to break the center and expose the head.

Then apply the blood choke as if you're doing a Uechi elbow movement. Ask any judo or jiujitsu person how to do this properly.

I've been thinking of adding that one as a dojo yakusoku kumite. I have a few others... I'm just waiting to get a decent 5 or so.

- Bill