Using the hips in Sanchin-based systems

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Bill Glasheen
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Using the hips in Sanchin-based systems

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I've had the great pleasure of working with a number of different Uechi seniors from a number of different "lines" of Uechi karate. In addition to what I've picked up there, I've also had the pleasure of working with several different Goju instructors, and actually have dan ranking in that Sanchin-based system. One thing that seems to pop up now and then is this stark contrast between those who move their hips in some way, and those who don't.

A few points of clarification are in order.

Virtually all who teach and practice Sanchin place emphasis on a "pelvic tilt." I've heard a number of different descriptions of this, and how it is done. But I've tweaked thousands of Sanchins through the years, and have a pretty good idea what this is. A proper pelvic tilt in Sanchin removes some (or all) of the lumbar lordosis (curve in small of back) without affecting other parts of the spine (bending forwards or backwards). In doing so, a person naturally bends the knees. I find it isn't necessary for me to have students make any additional effort to bend their knees if they do this tilt properly. The body will naturally bend at the knees to accomodate this tilt. This then gives the practitioner that natural "athletic" look of a bent-knee posture.

Accompanying this tilt is a need to turn the heels out. I know a lot of people like to talk about turning the feet in, but that bugs me. It implies one rotates on the heels, which absolutely is not the case. If instead one puts the feet at shoulder width, steps one foot a foot's length forwards, and then turns the heels out, the body will naturally "find" that magic twist of the femurs in the hip sockets that amounts to a trigger-cocking action.

The real question before going any farther then is "to what end?" Do we get in this posture so we can stand like the Rock of Gibraltar and dish it out? Do we consider this a "median" posture about which we vary? Is this a "cocked spring" position used to explode in any number of different ways? Depending upon the individual, how they are built, how they use their karate, and how they fight, I find a range of different answers to these questions. And these then lead to a bit of a dichotomy for some.

Do we move the hips, or do we keep them solid?

For years I was of the school of keeping those Sanchin hips rock solid and moving about like a waterbug. It works... I can do it... What I found over time however is a counter point of view that can be developed from any number of sources.

Let's start with a familiar character. Go to any number of films of Kanei Uechi doing kata.

Kanei Uechi Seisan

If you watch him do one of his patented sokusen kicks such as the one before the knee strike, you will see that his whole body is "alive." For years I would view that way of doing a kick as a bit of a Kanei abberation. Maybe nobody wanted to tell the master that he had a funny way of moving his body. But the more I study human kinesiology, the more I realize that the man was practicing our style on another level.

What we see in Kanei's front kicks is classic SSM (sequential summation of movement). The action starts with core muscles. I find I can exaggerate the heel-out motion and throw my arse back to set that kick up, and then pop the hips under while rotating the legs back out again. In doing so, I find that my body "finds' that motion that Kanei does so well. My legs over time are doing less and less of the work. My core muscles are getting the leg going, and my legs work more on placement of the kick. I find as I get better at this that I need less and less "room" to get that kick out. I even work my class on throwing the kick from a crane posture so there's no way they can do anything BUT drive it with core muscles. It highlights the importance of it all.

If you take basic motions such as the knee thrust before groin hits and do a different "spin" on it, you'll also see how "live" hips can come into play. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to convert a Uechi front knee thrust into a Muay Thai roundhouse knee drive into the floating ribs. Suddenly we find we can do more with less.

IF we let those hips go.

Interesting...

It gets more complicated than that though.

Nakamatsu has his whole line of students doing "live hip" thrusts in Sanchin kata. Bob Kaiser's dojo was the first place I saw it done. I tried learning this from Frank Gorman, but he wasn't quite able to transfer the information to me. I have to thank Dana for finally explaining it all in a way that I could really understand. Her ability to break the whole motion down into extreme phases (taught BTW by Nakamatsu himself) helped me realize that this was another classic example of SSM. It's a body wave that starts with the core muscles, and radiates out to the periphery. The more you can tap into the core, the less your arms work.

I have repeatedly shown pictures of pitchers throwing balls and home-run hitters swinging bats to illustrate extreme examples of this principle. The more a home run hitter is able to do this, the greater the power and the greater the precision of the swing. If you're doing the entire swing with the arms, you'll miss and you won't hit it anywhere if you do manage to connect wood to leather.

IMO we can do the exact same thing in Sanchin. We just happen to do it much, much smaller.

Simple motions such as the circles after "groin attacks" also yield well to hip movement, albeit in a different way. Making the navel swing from left to right will turn a "wauke" into a "lights out" attack on a bent-over opponent. Hmm... THAT'S why we hit them in the nuts before "blocking." Blocking my arse! :lol:

But the dichotomy continues. There is a school of Uechi that teaches locked hips. Not to name names, but... You will find camps where teachers are adamant about keeping those Sanchin hips still. Move the hips? That's not Uechi!!! That's not the way they do it in Okinawa!!! 8O

Hmm... 8)

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Post by chef »

Just curious, what other groups employ the use of hips in their Uechi? It is especailly helpful as a woman. Pat and I were talking about the power a woman can generate with her hips, doing the katas. Bill has reinforced this for a while now and, it is amazing the whipping action that the hips generate on the wauke, strikes, kicks, etc.

You should see a big difference once you get used to this initial movement.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Vicki
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

I think part of this is that this is really the extension of the idea that sanchin coordinates the entire body.

To me, coordinating my entire body in sanchin means every joint, every muscle, every bone, every cell of connective tissue, every neuron, every breath, and every thought are brought into the mix.

But what does "coordinate" mean to others? You can coordinate the body to have no movement, simultaneous movements, sequential movements, and combinations of the three.

What is the goal of the sanchin training?
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Post by Stryke »

I`m not a fan of the exteme tuck , different strokes for different folks , but I think it`s posturally unnecessary and at worst dangerous .

the slight tuck is fine , but the curve is there for a reason .

I think the use of the hips is totally necessary , it is a key factor in power generation , without it you have effectively eliminated one entire mechanic from any potential power generation .

the problem with the hips is the same as the problem with rigidity , it`s a matter of extreme .

the extremes work in one way , they sacrifice the balance/the median for one exagerated characteristic , the truth being that the total combination and balance of all mechnics/potentials , is what creates the most force with the least risk .

the key is to explore the motion and the way it effects others .

the potential of any motion is a variance from the ideal position , the tuck/or not should be seen as part of a transition , a natural range of motion , it is the movment to and from or beyond the ideal that creates potential .

you open new doorways of power , such as rotation and spinal whip/dragon type motions .

they can become small , very small , but if they were never there to begin with ......

all motion is inherently powerfull , you should never waste a single aspect/potential of it .
Last edited by Stryke on Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Probably the one motion that really got an unnamed instructor worked up a bit is a sequence in Sanseiryu.
  • Roundhouse double boshiken
  • Gedan barai (lower area sweep)
  • Shoken sukuiage (scooping-lifting) uke
  • Shoken toss
I've picked up my ways of doing Uechi kata from myriad sources. I actually started karate in Nippon Shorin Ken, and that original 2-year experience finds ways of expressing itself in places. I've played baseball and other sports where people learn by doing simple things thousands of times rather than through over-teaching. I love the Nakamatsu-style body whip, but... The way I do the sequence above didn't come from him. It came from George Greiffer.

I was at a seminar in Northern Virginia working with Gushi Sensei. Bumping into George was serendipity. George is an avid kobudo practitioner, and I picked up the "Red Man" eiku form from him. George has a wonderful way of whipping that big oar around by using his hips the way David Ortiz might swing a baseball bat. It's not quite that extreme, since David does a one-time, all-out swing to the fences. But those legs and hips - and not his arms - are what make that oar go around with such power and precision.

Well after watching and filming his eiku form, we did kata with Gushi. I was doing Sanseiryu and minding my own business. Then out of the corner of my eye, I note George doing something very unusual. I stopped to ask him what the heck he was doing the way I sometimes will pull Jim Thompson aside when he's doing a "Jim-ism."

Speaking of "They don't do that on Okinawa!!!" ... Jim picked up all kinds of cool stuff in Kanei's dojo while working there for a decade. The thing I've never been able to figure out is how one soul can spend a decade there and come out saying "That's not Uechi!!!", while another can come back as a fountain of ideas. Go figure...

But I digress.

I stopped George and asked him to do "the sequence." Wow... The way he moved those hips! 8O George then admitted that he was bringing it in from his kobudo.

But was he angering the Uechi gods? Not quite... George told me he was once working with Narahiro Shinjo, and found he was doing the same thing. And it was inspired by.... you guessed it - his kobudo studies.

8)

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Post by chef »

Bill, are there any clips anywhere of George Greiffer doing this "Red Man" eiku form? I would love to see this.

Regards,
Vicki
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

chef wrote:
Bill, are there any clips anywhere of George Greiffer doing this "Red Man" eiku form? I would love to see this.

Regards,
Vicki
I have a digital video of it, and created an mpeg. But I do not have George's permission to publish. In fact I filmed him with the explicit promise that I wouldn't publish it. I do however owe Rik Lostrito, the host, a copy.

I've got a deal for you. Get yourself an oar (Order one for me as well; I will pay.), and the form is yours. The only way I learn this stuff is by teaching it.

I have more than a few Okinawan kobudo forms floating around in my head where I'm dieing to get someone who wants to learn it. Funny... When Bruce Lee was doing nunchaku flash in Hollywood, everyone wanted to learn weapons. It was THE hot thing. Now that MMA is on pay-per-view, everyone wants to do that... until they get their booties kicked in the ring. :lol:

I love this stuff. Okinawan kobudo isn't just a piece of history preserved. Doing martial movements with weapons causes us to do all the things we're supposed to do in our forms, only bigger. With a larger load on the system, we need to crank out extra calories to get the desired effect. Furthermore, precision required to get the tip of a long weapon where you want it is a lot higher than the same to get your hand in such-and-such position in Sanchin or another form. So weapons forms put a magnifying glass on our mechanics. Remove the weapon, and your karate is vastly improved.

I get a kick out of listening to my older son dis the traditional weapon stuff. "Nobody's going to use..." ;) Ask Raffi how important all his sai work was in the development of his Filipino knife skills.

As Larry Tan used to say, "There are only so many ways to twist the human body. After a while, you start repeating yourself." Larry sees what I see in forms. He captures the lowest common denominator that ties lots of different applications together into a simple study of human movement. That's what all the great choreographers of yesteryear were able to do when designing good kata.

The Chinese used to teach weapons FIRST for this very reason. Get it down with a weapon, and your empty-hand skills are much easier to hone.

So... Are you ready to demonstrate this form on Saturday night at George's 50th anniversary camp next August? Not to volunteer you, but... :lol:

I'm an SOB, aren't I? ;)

Just to whet your appetite though, here's something worth a gander. This fellow doesn't move his hips the way George does, but you get the flavor of Eiku forms.

Tsuken Akachu No Eiku

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Post by chef »

You got yourself a deal, Bill. Will research the oar and send it your way to make sure I pick out the correct size and description you want. If able, I would do a kata with the oar, given enough time to adequately learn it.

Very similar to the use of the Bo. This reminded me of the Yammani Ryu Bo kata John Hassell taught, except John changed his hand positions and placements much more. I could only see two, maybe three places in the oar kata where hands shifted down on the oar compared to the Bo kata we were learning at camp.....can't remember the name of it.

Regards,
Vicki
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Post by AE Moores »

Our dojo (not sure what "line" we come from) is a huge proponent of the use of hips. Whether it be rotation (most common use of hips) or vibration (similar to two rotation...kind of sorta...). I've never understood why someone wouldn't use their hips. It's unathletic!!! Name a sport that the athlete doesn't use their hips to generate power... I can't think of one.

Now the use of hips doesn't over ride the need for proper mechanics/technique of the striking limb. For some students it is difficult to have the proper timing of the hips and the striking limb. For anyone that cares here is how our dojo breaks things down for our students to make sure the can develope proper mechanics and good use of the hip rotation and or vibration.

White Belt Mandate-
No Speed- ie how fast the arm or legs move
No Power- ie use of rotation, linear, vibration, upward or downward power sources
Upper and Lower Body seperation with a 3 second count --- In any linear or lateral movement the legs move, hold for 3 seconds, then the upper body moves ie block/punch etc.

Yellow Belt Mandate-
No Speed
Power accepted-
Upper and lower body seperation with a 2 second count

Orange Belt Mandate
Speed accepted
Power accepted
Upper and lower body seperation minimal-- 1 second count

Blue Belt Mandate-
Speed Required
Power Required
No upper and lower body seperation


Food for thought.

Off to teach.

Andrew
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Post by NEB »

I can't help mentioning Senaga sensei in refference to this topic. He has a way in incorporating the hips (and seemingly the whole body) into every movement. You can see how "dug in" and rooted he is, and he never exagorrates this or looses the compression aspect of the overall power delivery by getting too "hippy" ... as it were.

If anyone has footage of him performing Sanchin I would love to see it.

nb
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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

I agree Sensei Senaga is a great example personally my favourite to watch , he has alot of subtle factors tied into his movements , definately not robot ryu .

Georges has/sells a dvd of him performing wepaons and kata , very good stuff , not sure if Sanchins on there .
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Another thought

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Hi:
As Sensei Bill did, I found myself watching tapes of Kanei from the old days

Sometimes he would show a snap of the hips (slight=maybe 1-2") and sometimes not.

I am of the OKK thread of Uechi, and a limited 'snap' is suggested, but I have not seen a student 'fluunked' on a promotional for showing little 'snap' if sufficient power is otherwise observed.

The Pelvic tilt is addresessed by me in a different way, but with so many seniors on board, i'll keep it to myself for now.

Of Course, if somebody asks, I will say I learned 'a version' of the pelvic tilt, or perhaps just a way to explain it, from the "Iron Shirt Chi Kung" the same source from which I would import my explanation of "heel and leg" actions.
I don't actualy address much to the action of the heel, but perhaps I missed the point.

It often happens.
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Post by Dana Sheets »

To get specific:
Part of doing a wave is the shifting of body weight. For example, you can place your weight in your feet in different ways. You can concentrate much of your weight in your heels, in your toes, or in the ball of your foot. Or you can aim for having your weight evenly distributed throughout your foot.

The heel is a couple of inches back from the toes and ball of the foot. A weight shift of a few inches is very obvious in a sanchin stance. Coordinating this weight shift can add power to the strike but you risk throwing your center off-balance. Not shifting any weight is also an option - while you lose the additional power into the strike - you don't risk putting yourself off-balance.

As Rory has mentioned in other threads - you can also shift your body weight up and down.

Using your hips starts with how your feet connect to the ground. Otherwise you're just twisting in the wind, as it were.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Dana Sheets wrote:
As Rory has mentioned in other threads - you can also shift your body weight up and down.
I'm a big believer in this for a number of reasons, Dana.

First... It's natural. Watch a basketball player go up for a rebound. The first thing they do is... squat down. Then they explode up. An athlete learns (without being taught) how to trigger the dynamic stretch reflex in the power muscles of the legs and hips.

I do this before exploding forwards in my horse stances and front stances (with elbow strike a la Seisan).

Second... "Ducking" is a natural flinch response to something coming at your head. So is throwing your arm up, and "gasping." So you know what? When I do my front elbow thrust in Seisan (with the front stance), I often practice the first part of the motion (circle) as an arm flung up as a flinch while ducking and gasping. Then I transition to a finish off the circle, exploding forwards, and exhaling. Want to know what that does? It makes your training mesh with the hardwire programming in your lower brain. Next time I flinch like that, my body naturally will be able to blend it with a functional martial move.

Whenever we try to program our bodies to do things that are in conflict with the lower brain programmed responses, all we create is deer-in-the-headlamps syndrome. The last thing we want to do is go in complete opposition to lower-brain programming that helped us survive tens of thousands of years.
Dana Sheets wrote:
Using your hips starts with how your feet connect to the ground. Otherwise you're just twisting in the wind, as it were.
As our astronauts learn, it's very difficult swinging a hammer while space walking. Newton's laws come into play.

Yes, it's all about action and reaction. And your hips are in the eye of the hurricane.

- Bill
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Well-----

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Hi:

I try my best. But I must note that minor technical adjuztments (not that they were suggested as such) will drive the students nuts.

If one applies the Iron shirt/T'ai lessons of posture, many of the technical adjustements (or ;observed mistakes) then much of the 'problems' correct themselves.

If one simply learns to stand "correctly" many of the 'problems' experienced by students simply 'take care of themselves.


But one reason I do not post often here is because of the dame reacton I get when at other Dojos: "and what's the purpose of this 'standing staight" exercise" and what's the purpose of that (long stance) push hands drill.

It's a different language.

John
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