Uechi vs Headlocks

[f.Channell]

A LEO is in a unique and difficult position. For one the worse he beats them up the more paper work he does, or other accountability for the action. In another respect the stakes are high as he is posibly wrestling for control of his gun.

As a style I would love to see Uechi with two self defense series in defense of the 10 most common attacks. One for men and another for women.
This is what I'm thinking of adding to my curriculum in my school anyway.
Especially at the shodan level where frankly the learning material drops off drastically.

F.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jeeze guys, f##k the system/style/ryu ha/school of enlightenment/cult/box/dead end/coffin whatever the hell you want to call what you believe in or do and just ask yourself; do you have anything in your toolbox for headlocks, rear chokes, attack with a blunt object, etc?

You either do or you don't have something and the ability to execute it when it matters, it's really that simple and it doesn't mean jack sh!t if your system/style/ryu ha/school of enlightenment/cult/box/dead end/coffin has it or not, and it sure as hell doesn't matter if long dead grand master what's his name had it either.

This gets back to my original point, and approach to martial arts. And I'm not alone on this. I abhor the practice of parsing "techniques" into styles. Because the truth is, most good styles share a common core. And it isn't in techniques per se; it's in the application and the execution.

Why would Rory - a Sosuishitsu Ryu Jujutsu guy and prison guard instructor say he could teach karate better than many ranked karateka who "memorize" their curriculum? Why would Patrick McCarthy be traveling the world teaching people how to apply their own art?

And where can you meet these guys other than on the floor or on the mat?

Does your martial art style have a defense against headlocks? Any good ones for defending against rear chokes and side headlocks?

It's a simple question, and not really a good one from my perspective as at best it's too generic, or at worst it's a loaded question and a red herring to boot.

Indeed.

As a style I would love to see Uechi with two self defense series in defense of the 10 most common attacks. One for men and another for women.
This is what I'm thinking of adding to my curriculum in my school anyway.
Especially at the shodan level where frankly the learning material drops off drastically.

Now you're talking!

But why start at shodan?

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

A LEO is in a unique and difficult position. For one the worse he beats them up the more paper work he does, or other accountability for the action. In another respect the stakes are high as he is posibly wrestling for control of his gun.

If you want to teach a LEO how to handle head locks and neck restraints, you have to get into the shoes of the LEO.

Glenn brought up the MCMAP. For what it's worth, Uechi is one of a handful of contributing influences to their program. And they bring that influence throughout the force continuum.

With the LEO it's about the law and it's about the available force. One cannot give advice in a vacuum. To do so is just plain naive. If you have a sidearm and someone has a neck restraint on you, the sidearm becomes a primary consideration.

Many simple things come from Uechi Ryu, such as controling posture and getting a handle on the Survival Stress Reflex (SSR). For you Uechi guys who spend all your time locked in schools wearing the white diapers, that is what they mean by "walking meditation" in Sanchin. Three very simple concepts come through just with the practice of the first kata. I've mentioned this before; I will mention it again very explicitly.

• Don't panic. Sanchin teaches us to get a handle on the SSR. If you start to piss your pants, you've lost before you got started.
• Keep control of the posture and of the center. To do otherwise is to allow your best options to be taken away from you. In every grappling class I ever worked in, my Sanchin discipline was the ace up my sleeve. Often if I didn't want to go, I had the ability not to go. This is true on my feet, on my knees, or horizontal. As Einstein might say, it's all relative.
  
  Yes, we practice that in class - from beginners on up. My students are friends with the floor.
• In most cases (it all depends...), a simple core-driven turn combined with some manipulation of the triangle can buy you lots of time. If they keep adjusting, then YOU keep counter-adjusting. One move flows into the next, which flows into the next...

Once you've calmly taken care of business... Oh yea, the firearm!!!

Protect it. Use it.

But this is all theory. It doesn't mean squat if you don't get out there on the mat and try it out. And once you're out on that mat and you see some people doing things easier than others, then you get a better appreciation for the folks who take the time constantly to work on the fundamentals.

- Bill

[IJ]

Bill, can you elaborate on what ground exercises you do in your class? Just curious.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill, can you elaborate on what ground exercises you do in your class? Just curious.

I've gotten very free-form, Ian.

It's ukemi-based training, but with a mix of Sanchin discipline. And I don't use mats. What I try to do is spend a little time each class rolling, tumbling, walking on the knees, going up and down, etc. My goal is to make people unafraid even of a wooden floor. It takes time. But everyone seems to be coming along.

True story... One day Rich was teaching a class at American Family Fitness Center. Little did he know that there was a Marine who was part of the MCMAP watching through the glass from outside. After the class, the fellow came up to Rich and scolded him for teaching "secrets of the MCPAP." Nope... Rich was teaching Bill Ryu.

The Marines pretty much do the same thing. They don't mess around with mats every day. There's a lot of time spent outdoors on the hard ground learning ukemi and simple grappling techniques.

I do less on the specific grappling, and a lot more on movement, posture, and transitioning. You can layer whatever you want on top of that.

- Bill

[IJ]

Mats encourage techniques that may not work on hard surfaces, or at least must be modified but can be super (eg, the wrestling shot), and BJJ certainly can encourage people to take positions that work for sport and not as well in a fight, like guard taking strikes on a concrete surface. On the other hand... a bit of ground work moving around doesn't make the ground a familiar or comfortable territory or prepare people for dealing with someone with grappling experience. That takes quite an investment of time and probably a specific, well rounded, self defense curriculum. IMHO.

[Chris McKaskell]

Intersting thread, I've been enjoying reading -- but I need a little memory jog here (don't want to redirect things but wanted to ask since the notion of 'self defence curriculumn' came up)

What are the ten most common attacks Fred referred to?

Thank you.

[Bill Glasheen]

Intersting thread, I've been enjoying reading -- but I need a little memory jog here (don't want to redirect things but wanted to ask since the notion of 'self defence curriculumn' came up)

What are the ten most common attacks Fred referred to?

Thank you.

It's worth mentioning that there are 36 Habitual Acts of Physical Violence (HAPV), as cataloged by Patrick McCarthy. I'm guessing that ten is a nice round number, and a bite-sized chuck of material to work with.

Do you have 10 specific attacks in mind, Fred?

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Mats encourage techniques that may not work on hard surfaces, or at least must be modified but can be super (eg, the wrestling shot), and BJJ certainly can encourage people to take positions that work for sport and not as well in a fight, like guard taking strikes on a concrete surface.

There is no "perfect" scenario here.

The mats are useful for preventing injuries. They also prevent purely flinch responses from being ingrained - the kind that aren't particularly helpful in our training.

Equipment has its pluses and minuses. For example gloves teach us to punch to the head, which is bad news when preparing for the street or for battle. Yes, we need to protect the hands in the gym and in competition. But for the same reason, we don't want to put them in jeopardy on the street.

Sport helps us to learn how to battle freeform against an uncooperative partner. But a complete focus on sport brings its baggage.

On the other hand... a bit of ground work moving around doesn't make the ground a familiar or comfortable territory or prepare people for dealing with someone with grappling experience. That takes quite an investment of time and probably a specific, well rounded, self defense curriculum. IMHO.

Very true.

However I'm not going to let perfect be the enemy of a very good start. I see a lot of that going on in the Forum discussions. Approaches are disparaged because they don't measure up to some perfect learning situation "elsewhere", or some Platonic ideal. That's not helpful.

We crawl before we walk before we run. I believe that teaching people to be comfortable moving around on a hard floor - from supine to standing - is a useful skill. And like everything from Sanchin to swinging a golf club to swinging a bat, it takes constant practice to maintain any skill level. At this point I enjoy showing people that they can do it and not get hurt. If you're having fun while learning, that can't be all bad.

Once I have that foundation, then I don't feel limited when/if I want to introduce a kata concept that isn't the modern stereotypical punch-and-kick solution. That's very liberating. And... my students then are ready for specialization elsewhere.

- Bill

[chef]

I, as a woman, against men with an built in advantage of size and strength, would love to see more mat work and grappling...I am thinking about taking some BJJ classes locally to find out some effective defenses and attacks once knocked to the ground...just hate to pay the $65 a month with a possible job lay off right around the corner.

Help!

Vicki

[Van Canna]

It is all in sanchin, Vicky

[Bill Glasheen]

I, as a woman, against men with an built in advantage of size and strength, would love to see more mat work and grappling...I am thinking about taking some BJJ classes locally to find out some effective defenses and attacks once knocked to the ground...just hate to pay the $65 a month with a possible job lay off right around the corner.

Help@

Vicki

They can be pricey, Vicki, as you well know. That's partially because the activity requires a minimum amount of equipment.

And then coming from a family where my boy was wrestling... I can tell you that you don't want to go into just any gym. Grapplers suffer from all kinds of contact illnesses if the operator of the gym isn't absolutely scrupulous about keeping the mats clean and insisting participants keep clean. My boy's wrestling coach was the most meticulous person with respect to mat cleanliness that I've ever seen. Meanwhile that place off of Staples Mill where we would train? I could smell the funk in the mats. Not good.

A few here are very high on BJJ. Personally I'm more enamored with traditional Japanese jujutsu. Jack Summers, Rory Miller, Mike Murphy, and Sal Jabbar all have experience in that realm. The older styles - stemming from the days where men fought on the battlefield - paid more attention to many-on-one possibilities. They weren't so much about sport. Sal (Bruce's student) is very highly ranked in Japanese jiujitsu and has done BJJ. His preferences are for the former.

Mostly it's about finding a good instructor. They unfortunately are few and far between. Both Joey and Rory are rare finds. Make sure you work with them both at the next camp.

We'll keep an eye out. There's always a chance we could partner up with someone and have some fun.

- Bill

[fivedragons]

In the spirit of the thread, maybe time to take some self-inventory.

The policeman is screwed, because he has to operate under some kind of mind boggling set of rules that preclude the use of martial arts. He has to have some magical non-existent ready made formula that will guarantee him to prevail in any situation where someone has their arm around his neck.

He has to do this without causing injury, or breaking a sweat, while maintaining complete control of a bar full of drunks, and everyone gets to go home and sleep it off.

No, there is no technique for a headlock or RNC. If anyone thinks they have some kind of fool proof answer to any violent situation, why don't you share it with us.

[fivedragons]

However, there are a few things you can do to someone that has put you in a headlock or choke.

You can destroy their knee, break the bones in their foot, break their ankle, wrist, elbow, dislocate their shoulder, break their neck or fracture their skull, etc...

Self inventory: with your eyes closed, reach down and see how long it takes you to isolate one testicle and very slowly apply pressure with your thumb and forefinger.

Grab your ear with a boshiken and twist, pull.

Put the thumb of your boshiken or whatever into your mouth between cheek and gum, pull, twist.

Have your training partner stomp down on your knee and then throw you over there shoulder, driving the top of your head into the cement.

See where I'm going with this?

The goal isn't to have an effective technique, the goal is to be effective.

Doesn't mean someone else isn't going to be more effective than you.

[Bill Glasheen]

fivedragons

You quite often entertain me in a very morbid way. Thanks for brightening my Monday morning.

The goal isn't to have an effective technique, the goal is to be effective.

This is nicely put. You can go a lot of places with that simple mantra. But it sums up the best chances at survival. The style-centric criticisms miss this point. As I might similarly say, it's more about the execution of the sum of what you know rather than any formulaic approach. And getting there takes time - especially time on the floor and the mat.

In your case, I would venture to say that it's as much if not more about operant conditioning as it is about specific techniques. The weekend warrior isn't going to have the intestinal fortitude to crush a testicle or pluck an eyeball - to their peril. The inbred instinct not to harm one's fellow man can carry you at times to your grave. That's why the military works very hard to make sure soldiers are ready for gruesome battle and stimulus-response killing.

The policeman is screwed, because he has to operate under some kind of mind boggling set of rules that preclude the use of martial arts. He has to have some magical non-existent ready made formula that will guarantee him to prevail in any situation where someone has their arm around his neck.

He has to do this without causing injury, or breaking a sweat, while maintaining complete control of a bar full of drunks, and everyone gets to go home and sleep it off.

I understand your sentiments. However... not quite. There are rules of engagement that allow a LEO to apply lethal force. Facing a blackout from a headlock or dealing with a preponderance of force (many on one) are two such situations.

And much of the dojo stuff pales in comparison to what the LEO can do and must take responsibility for with a semiauto in his holster. That variable just changes the whole equation.

- Bill