Is a cigar just a cigar?

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Bill Glasheen
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Is a cigar just a cigar?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I am very clear in my approach to teaching martial techniques. Especially when it comes to martial movements in Sanchin kata, I am not interested in calling techniques as specific applications. An arm extension is just an arm extension. A circle is just a circle. A step is just a step. A turn is just a turn.

One word in particular I hate is the "b" word. Why? Because when doing a circle in kata, I see so many different applications. Others say "wauke block."

I don't do circle blocks. I do circles. To use a technical term, I am just practicing a "thingie" that happens to be a circle. I have many applications for those circles.

Here's an interesting article from Fightingarts.com.
Viewpoint
There Are No Blocks In Advanced Martial Arts


By Jeff Brooks

The chances are good that you know a lot of martial artists who could take their defensive ability much further. There are two misunderstandings under which many, even most, modern martial artists act. And these two errors undercut a lot of the hard work they are putting into their training. In a real confrontation the consequences can be serious.

The word for defensive technique in Japanese is instructive. Although it is often translated as “block” the word “uke” actually means “receive” as in how we move to effectively receive the combative energy (the attack) of the opponent.

Misunderstanding number one: “a block is a shielding action.” In boxing the fighters do shield their face and torso from incoming attacks by covering up with their forearms. This is partly where the misunderstanding comes from. We have all seen boxers defend like this. However, if you are doing barehanded fighting, with no gloves to cushion and disperse the energy from the incoming attack, then the blunt force trauma of the attack to the forearms will quickly – after just a few hard blows from a strong attacker – damage them beyond use.

It is rare, in a combative situation, that shielding of that kind would be intentionally employed. Yes it is better to get hit in the arm than in the face if you have to make the choice. But practicing taking hits to the forearm as your defensive strategy is like practicing crashing your car into bushes instead of oncoming traffic. As a last ditch effort, okay. But why not learn to use the brakes? Or in the case of defensive fighting skills, why not learn what actually is taught in the kata?

The second misunderstanding about blocks – and the more common one – is that blocks are interceptions. That is “blocks are like anti-missile techniques.”

It is as if people who teach defending this way actually believe that you can perceive the incoming technique, process the information and respond decisively and accurately to it. You can’t. No matter how good you are if you are reacting to the opponent’s decision making, if you allow your opponent the initiative in the fight, however briefly, they will quickly outpace your ability to keep responding.

The reactive reflex arch is too long. You can pull this off in choreographed or predictable technique exchanges; and you may be able to do it where attack zones are limited (in sport matches where no attacks are allowed below the belt or to the back does set up a situation in which you have a highly predictable and relatively easily defendable target region.)

Using your arms as “anti-missile” interceptors can work under these limited conditions but it is far inferior to genuine defensive technique as embodied in kata and taught in actual combative arts. And which is required in self-defense action.

The first misunderstanding may come from watching sport of boxing, or from a childhood panic reflex to duck and cover. This second one may be a metaphoric construction derived from battlefield tactical training, or movies about it.

On the battlefield we choose between fire and maneuver. A rifleman or a tank – or tactical groups of these – move and shoot. Moving and shooting are not the same. Like hearing and vision they are related but inevitably separate dimensions of activity.

The treads on a tank give it mobility. They can position the tank to fire but they have no special effect on the firing. The same is true for the tank’s gun. It fires. It cannot affect the mobility of the tank. As a rifleman (or hand gunner, etc.) you can move and fire at the same time but the feet do the moving and the hands do the firing and these are separate functions, however well coordinated they may be when performed by an expert.

This does not match what we need to do in order to maximize our effectiveness as martial artists. Our bodies are much more complex and so are more able to function as integrated systems not just as related systems of fire and mobility. (This attribute is most evidently true with empty hand but it holds to a large degree when examining armed exchanges with bladed or impact weapons.)

Certainly it is essential to gain the initiative in the interaction immediately or at least as rapidly as possible. If we move properly in response to incoming force it is possible to simultaneously (in a single movement)

1. Reroute the incoming energy past our target region,
2. Reposition our body just outside the range of attack,
3. Off balance the opponent,
4. Damage the opponent’s attacking personal weapon (limb), and
5. Execute a counter and/or set up a counter attack that is launched without any extra motion of your body.

To do this we have to understand the use of the full body in movement. If we move the body as parts – an arm here, a step there – we will not maximize our ability to move effectively. The means of moving the body as a fully integrated system utilizes the three components of koshi – the ability to move in a whip-like, helical form by rotating from the center, compression – drawing the body toward the center point and then exploding force outward, and using the arches of the body – integrated flows of energy and body architecture which connect the whole body in a resilient unified structure.

Describing those three components of fully integrated body movement is outside the scope of this article. If you haven’t studied them you should get this information because it will add a whole new level of achievement to what you are doing.

When we move in this way we can feel that the “defensive positions” in our kata and our combative tactics are not merely “point to point” interceptor defenses but in effect are “zone defenses.” We don’t know precisely where the attack is targeted against us but we do not in fact need that precise predictive intelligence to respond effectively. This understanding informs our use of the hand, arm and body positions in “defensive” techniques, and makes it different and much more Boolean than the usual “point to point” interpretation of defensive movement.

But what this way of moving does is allow the body shift and opponent contact to be a single motion, and allows for no perceptible delay in following up, responding to incoming assaultive technique.

This idea is an entry point to advanced martial arts. If you go in this direction your martial arts will be transformed and you will become a truly effective fighter and a practitioner of a higher order.
So to get this thread started...

Do YOU think Jeff and I are off base? Is it just a circle block? Is chudan uke from karate just a middle block?

- Bill
maxwell ainley
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Post by maxwell ainley »

Bill ,
Uechi-ryu is a chinese system as we know ,my point is ;there may have been a chinese classification for all and everything thats Uechi .
Also if I have this right Kanbun spoke in Hogen and the dialect of fujian ,and if this is true Kanbun rarely spoke during class .
I think the classifications [Jap] have been tagged on and can help in confusing maybe what Kanbun intended .
max ainley
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Max

Excellent points! Thank you for the insight.

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JimHawkins
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Re: Is a cigar just a cigar?

Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote:I am very clear in my approach to teaching martial techniques. Especially when it comes to martial movements in Sanchin kata, I am not interested in calling techniques as specific applications. An arm extension is just an arm extension. A circle is just a circle. A step is just a step. A turn is just a turn.

One word in particular I hate is the "b" word. Why? Because when doing a circle in kata, I see so many different applications. Others say "wauke block."

I don't do circle blocks. I do circles. To use a technical term, I am just practicing a "thingie" that happens to be a circle. I have many applications for those circles.
There's a lot going on there to respond to..

Is a circle just a circle?

No..

Just like a straight line isn't just a straight line or thrust...

They are specific actions designed to do something specific, which doesn't have to mean single application either... If you train "just a circle" instead of a particular motion, mechanic or action then you have moved away from training a specific tool, tactic or action.. At that point it's just training generic geometric shapes that are not specialized and therefore too general IMO....


We wan't to train correct mechanics NOT approximations of correct mechanics..

We also have circles in WCK.. There are different circles for different things and they are different, with different mechanics.. None of them have a singular application but they are specialized actions none the less... In order to use them and train them correctly they should be trained with not only the correct mechanics (kata) but with the correct stimulus and response (drilling)...
There Are No Blocks In Advanced Martial Arts
Of course there are.. This takes the extreme of the opposite view which holds these things as only blocks, where "block" is misrepresented as a passive solitary action...

In other words what are blocks?

Here we begin to move toward the truth:
The word for defensive technique in Japanese is instructive. Although it is often translated as “block” the word “uke” actually means “receive” as in how we move to effectively receive the combative energy (the attack) of the opponent.
Okay, now we are getting closer... But the crux of the problem still remains, the timing, the lack of time, the decision process, etc is all still there.... If blocks don't work because of timing problems then changing the meaning of the word doesn't eliminate these problems either... However making most actions just the same old attack on the center does simplify things greatly...

In close range CMA we have what is called bridging, it means contact between the tools or limbs of the combatants.... It's the bridge that we want, the contact, the connection....and some of these things are intended to do just that--make a connection and along the way deal with energy... Once there is a connection all these other rules of timing and hand eye coordination go out the window because now you are working with contact, feeling and alive energy interactions... A different ball game and one that many CMA specialize in.

We also must realize that there are low % moves and higher % moves... Yes, we prefer the latter but we don't throw out the former because they are lower %... Why? Because they may be the best option in the moment...
Misunderstanding number one: “a block is a shielding action.” In boxing the fighters do shield their face and torso from incoming attacks by covering up with their forearms. This is partly where the misunderstanding comes from. We have all seen boxers defend like this. However, if you are doing barehanded fighting, with no gloves to cushion and disperse the energy from the incoming attack, then the blunt force trauma of the attack to the forearms will quickly – after just a few hard blows from a strong attacker – damage them beyond use.
Agreed... Passive covering ain't so hot...
The second misunderstanding about blocks – and the more common one – is that blocks are interceptions. That is “blocks are like anti-missile techniques.”
Disagree here...

Intercepting is the name of the game...it's what receiving is all about.. It's all in how you do it...

Again these things/tools or actions we use from outside are intended to serve as bridging tools, and along the way they are also used to jam, control, steal balance, issue energy, protect and gain position...

They are not isolated and not intended to be used as a single move all purpose guaranteed fight ender..

Rather they are intended to help us move to the operating range of our tool box where we can then finish the job..
It is as if people who teach defending this way actually believe that you can perceive the incoming technique, process the information and respond decisively and accurately to it. You can’t.
Wrong.. The correct answer is you can't ALWAYS do that..

If there was no hope in responding decisively to an attack we would have to eliminate half of the KOs we've seen in fighting.... There are all kinds of ways to respond to attacks and the best of those ways will shut them down before they develop their attack... There is more to this stuff than a simple "you can't stop their attack" there are shades of gray... There is intercepting their intent, intercepting their attack--on the preparation, midway through the attack, and on completion of the attack... There is attacking the attack and on and on...

Many of these intercepts will use the very elements this author espouses later on.....
No matter how good you are if you are reacting to the opponent’s decision making, if you allow your opponent the initiative in the fight, however briefly, they will quickly outpace your ability to keep responding.
Yes if by intercepting you mean waiting for them--however it does not...
The reactive reflex arch is too long. You can pull this off in choreographed or predictable technique exchanges; and you may be able to do it where attack zones are limited (in sport matches where no attacks are allowed below the belt or to the back does set up a situation in which you have a highly predictable and relatively easily defendable target region.)
We can't always be the attacker... Meaning we can't always be the one making the first move.... It's that simple really.. So part of what this stuff is about is recapturing the offensive timing and that is what attacking the attack is all about, AND there are all kinds of ways to do that...
Using your arms as “anti-missile” interceptors can work under these limited conditions but it is far inferior to genuine defensive technique as embodied in kata and taught in actual combative arts. And which is required in self-defense action.
The arms have to do something when we intercept or when we are working to convert to offense.. One of the most effective ways to do this is to attack or displace the weapons that are coming into your space.. Either way we want to bridge or receive the energy in order to close range where connected combative tools come into their own..

And again there are many ways to do this all of which involves or should involve total body movement...

Still waiting for this guy to unveil the holy grail btw... Yawn..
Certainly it is essential to gain the initiative in the interaction immediately or at least as rapidly as possible. If we move properly in response to incoming force it is possible to simultaneously (in a single movement)

1. Reroute the incoming energy past our target region,
2. Reposition our body just outside the range of attack,
3. Off balance the opponent,
4. Damage the opponent’s attacking personal weapon (limb), and
5. Execute a counter and/or set up a counter attack that is launched without any extra motion of your body.

To do this we have to understand the use of the full body in movement.
And low and behold our hero finally addresses what you should do.. Let's note that most of the above is what intercepting is all about...

And so "blocking is too hard to do" but this isn't??? :lol:

Half of this stuff is what those "blocks" were supposed to do in the first place.. Again it seems we are victims of semantics....

And we discover that it's the same stuff he says can't work... Again it's all in the execution..

All of the above was intended to do these exact things... It's all a matter of phrasing here or in training for the dojo...

CMA tools and tactics are about bridging for these very reasons, because close range CMA are about energy issuing, tactile sensitivity and balance stealing and using attached methods for these very purposes...

Oh and lest I be remiss... Not all SD is about defense to striking which this seems to focus on entirely....
Shaolin
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Post by JimHawkins »

maxwell ainley wrote: my point is ;there may have been a chinese classification for all and everything thats Uechi .
Absolutely true Max..

For example: The palm up elbow in position is called TanSao--not only in wing chun--but in many CMA...

The literal translation means 'to spread out'--the energy received....

Anyone looking to better understand these arts can learn a lot from looking at other similar CMA..
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
MikeK
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Re: Is a cigar just a cigar?

Post by MikeK »

Bill Glasheen wrote:Do YOU think Jeff and I are off base? Is it just a circle block? Is chudan uke from karate just a middle block?
I think Jeff is a bit narrow in his thinking.
It is as if people who teach defending this way actually believe that you can perceive the incoming technique, process the information and respond decisively and accurately to it. You can’t.
Well often times you can and we do it all of the time. If properly trained the decisive response is already available. This predetermined response brings your OODA loop in tighter helping you get inside of his loop.
No matter how good you are if you are reacting to the opponent’s decision making, if you allow your opponent the initiative in the fight, however briefly, they will quickly outpace your ability to keep responding.
The attacker will always have the initiative, it's the way things are. But as long as he's still making decisions I have a good chance of taking the initiative using the responses I've learned in training.

We've covered this stuff before.

Other than that I think Jim nailed a lot of what I was thinking about the article.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Post by MikeK »

By the way, I don't think the Japanese used the word "block" until trying to translate technique names to English. From what I can tell the stand alone block was a misunderstanding of very basic kihon practice married to instructors not understanding irimi, sabaki and a whole host of other principles in Japanese martial arts.

And sometimes a block is a block depending on what's trying to be accomplished. :wink:
An arm extension is just an arm extension. A circle is just a circle. A step is just a step. A turn is just a turn.
Well they are until they're not. Sooner of later that arm extension turns into a punch or eye jab or a stretch.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

:popcorn:
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

ok then if a cigar isn't just a cigar....what is it then? :? ...is it an ice cream :P
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Bill being quoted.
MikeK wrote:
Bill Glasheen wrote:
An arm extension is just an arm extension. A circle is just a circle. A step is just a step. A turn is just a turn.
Well they are until they're not. Sooner of later that arm extension turns into a punch or eye jab or a stretch.
The statement in context.
Bill Glasheen wrote:
Especially when it comes to martial movements in Sanchin kata, I am not interested in calling techniques as specific applications. An arm extension is just an arm extension. A circle is just a circle. A step is just a step. A turn is just a turn.
Hmm...

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jim wrote:
Is a circle just a circle?

No..

Just like a straight line isn't just a straight line or thrust...

They are specific actions designed to do something specific, which doesn't have to mean single application either... If you train "just a circle" instead of a particular motion, mechanic or action then you have moved away from training a specific tool, tactic or action.. At that point it's just training generic geometric shapes that are not specialized and therefore too general IMO....


We wan't to train correct mechanics NOT approximations of correct mechanics..
Jeff Brooks wrote:
Our bodies are much more complex and so are more able to function as integrated systems not just as related systems of fire and mobility. (This attribute is most evidently true with empty hand but it holds to a large degree when examining armed exchanges with bladed or impact weapons.)

Certainly it is essential to gain the initiative in the interaction immediately or at least as rapidly as possible. If we move properly in response to incoming force it is possible to simultaneously (in a single movement)

1. Reroute the incoming energy past our target region,
2. Reposition our body just outside the range of attack,
3. Off balance the opponent,
4. Damage the opponent’s attacking personal weapon (limb), and
5. Execute a counter and/or set up a counter attack that is launched without any extra motion of your body.

To do this we have to understand the use of the full body in movement.
Hmm....
Jim wrote:
Again it seems we are victims of semantics....
Ya think?

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jim wrote:
Is a circle just a circle?

No..

Just like a straight line isn't just a straight line or thrust...

They are specific actions designed to do something specific
Really?

In Seisan kata (NOT Sanchin kata, BTW...), identical circles are employed in the following contexts.
  • A step forward from left to right Sanchin dachi with a left circle, followed by a right "hammerfist" to the left palm.
  • A step forward from right to left Sanchin dachi while swinging the dangling arms in a front/back orientation (a.k.a. "groin strikes" if that helps you...) followed by a left circle.
So...

That circle which I practice in Sanchin... What specific thing was I practicing for in Seisan?

Are these identical circles (in red above) doing identical things?

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

This from Psychology Today.

- Bill
March 1, 2009, Procrastination

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
Don't be so hard on yourself!

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. This saying is attributed to Freud. I don't know if he really said it, but it doesn't matter. The message is valid in any case. My adaptation of this classic phrase is "Sometimes a delay is just a delay." Don't beat yourself up.

I cleaned off my desk today. It needed it. I didn't even know what was in those piles anymore, and there wasn't any place to work. Needless to say, given that I have lots of things to do (when don’t I?, that’s half the problem), this desk-cleaning task had overtones of procrastination.

Honestly, there probably was a little needless delay in my attention to some of the details, but it turned out well, and the tidy organization, not to mention just the cleanliness, gave me an important sense of structure and control. But here’s the rub, as we’ve depicted in our Carpe Diem cartoon below, a sense of structure and control can actually lead to procrastination!

Image

In my case today, I didn’t linger over the cleaning or make tidying my only office task for the day. I got my grading done right after.

So, what's the difference? When is desk cleaning (or any of the other usual suspects like creating new podcast playlists, cleaning out my email inbox or updating my system software) truly procrastination as opposed to sagacious or at least necessary delay? Only the individual her- or himself can know for sure of course, but we may recognize the difference by the emotions we feel in relation to the task.

Feeling guilt during the cleaning is a pretty good sign that this isn't where you should be putting your effort and time. Unfortunately, as I note with my Freudian reference, our culture can even make the lowly cigar a symbol of something else, something much more provocative with moral overtones.

Image

It can be the same for all delay. It’s not just delay, it's procrastination - a deep moral failure of sorts. And, with these moral overtones, we can, quite unnecessarily, feel guilt and shame about our delay.

As I've said before, all procrastination IS delay, but not all delay is procrastination.

Lighten up. Don't be so hard on yourself. Delay . . . a break . . . time away from our tasks, even the most pressing, can be very important. However, be prepared to use a different label when it’s appropriate, like “incubation time” or maybe even structured procrastination (as you head off to some less dreaded task).

The key thing is to acknowledge the difference in your own life, take ownership of your life, and avoid the self-deception and guilt that is so common to chronic procrastination.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

And sometimes...

Image

Image


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Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote: That circle which I practice in Sanchin... What specific thing was I practicing for in Seisan?
I don't really understand the question...
Bill Glasheen wrote: Are these identical circles (in red above) doing identical things?
It never mattered if they are doing identical 'things' or not..

Are these things specific tools, actions, techniques?

Are they trained with a specific mechanic, motion?

Is that the way they are applied, with that specific mechanic and motion?

If yes to the last two questions then you have continuity in both form and function, if not, not..

BTW....

Just for your information.... We tend to see all our forms and movements, etc, as not having any particular, or singular application/sequence/event..

The forms do not represent a fight...

It's very much like playing scales or chords when learning an instrument... No real song sounds like scales or random chords and that's apparent to anyone hearing them.. But the scales and chords are what later creates real music.

In application (playing music) they are the very same chords and notes but rearranged in a cogent manner; they are not "fuzzy"; you don't need to squint to see them; there's no confusion that one chord or note is another, an F is not also an F#... Nor is there confusion in how to practice them because there is a 1:1 relationship to what is used later to make music...

Most of the tools/actions as combined in our forms are mixed up in ways intended to clearly show that the order/arrangement is not significant. There's no particular compound or extended-sequential 'meaning' or 'song' intended.

This is so later the student is not programed with combinations to regurgitate, but rather with tools and actions,mechanics that can be recombined with attributes in any way needed, through alive adaptive drilling... (play music).

Still, a chord is indeed just a chord, a note just a note a scale just a scale... until it isn't...

(Caution: Gratuitous sexy picture post to keep up with Bill.. :lol: )

What kinds of instruments do these gals play?

Image

Oh Yvonne....
Image

Forever Springtime (wing chun)
Image
Sigh.... :multi:
Shaolin
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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