Is a cigar just a cigar?

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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Yes and no Mike.

Rory’s view is what I ascribe to in this aspect of the discussion.

If you have the book, go to chapter two “How to think” it is most enlightening.

For example, on page two, read what he writes about the assumption some people have about the ‘straight- blast technique’ where you apply chained punches to the face with aggressive forward movement.

Read how he explains that even when you develop a belief based on personal experience, you are influenced in subtle ways…Rory
Look at your beliefs and the source of those beliefs. Some of your beliefs came from early training or bad sources. Some of your sources were chosen because you knew they supported your pre-existing point of view. Look very deeply at those sources that you accept without question.

As you do this it will allow you to see many things that you have thought of as true as merely opinions, and give you great freedom in exploring and understanding both your world and other people’s.

Because of the nature of this book I want you to apply this concept first to violence. Violence, for most of us, is uncharted territory. Though martial artists have studied ‘fighting’ and everyone has been raised in a culture where ‘stylized violence’ is everywhere, very little of what we know is based on experience, and very much is based on word of mouth. It is for many people ‘entirely assumptions’ _
This is the real subliminal quandary gyrating inside of us, whether we accept it or not.

We can argue all we want and we do and will do so
_ to infinity in attempts to ‘self convince’ but that little man inside keeps on slapping us at the back of our brain.
Van
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

One of the most insidious aspect of ‘attack’…is what is in the mind of the attacker bent on projecting his brand of violence upon you, and the form this violence takes when it comes at you.

I have argued these points in the past on my page…but here is something from Senshido, a site Darren Laur likes very much…that is a gem
So back to my initial point as to why a person may attack us, provoke us etc... Barring certain exceptions (only because I believe that all rules or statement of fact especially when opinionated has at least one exception).

It could be that this person looks at you and on some level sees what they hate in themselves, and so they chose you, they project onto you: Maybe it's because your tall, or you look like you have money, or simply your of a certain gender or race, and your attacker is going to take all the dissatisfaction they feel in their life at that moment and make you pay for it convinced you deserve it somehow.

Sounds like a victim trying to make victims doesn't it. When you think of a person antagonizing you, trying to escalate a situation like this they can become violent, on some level it’s like they want you to feel what they feel, like this they can take a good look at themselves in you eyes and then tear what they see apart.

Richard once said in one of his articles that you have to take everything into consideration when approached in a hostile manner: where is this person coming from?
Think of the ramifications of what is written here.
Van
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Van Canna wrote: For example, on page two, read what he writes about the assumption some people have about the ‘straight- blast technique’ where you apply chained punches to the face with aggressive forward movement.
This would be a valid expression of what we do if one only used the knowledge gleaned on the first day of training, and ran with it, literally..

Also in JKD a straight blast means something else entirely as far as I know...

In any case I can't speak for other styles but there is no such thing as a "chain punch technique" in the style it's known for...my style..

There is simply a punch, or a strike and a repeat of that strike.. if one is only talking about strikes that is..

It's like saying that a western boxer hitting his opponent more than once is a "technique"... It's not it's simply a combination of strikes...

Same thing with forward energy.. It's much more than a train coming at you, in fact that's not really what it is at all.. It's about a subtle energy and pressure on the bridge and how to use that energy and pressure in close quarters like compressed springs to instantly fill space that opens up, to take position, issue energy and steal balance..

It's not about chasing folks around, not that THAT can't happen either quite often once the opponent loses it.. To understand these subtleties one must train under a qualified teacher, not simply observe what so and so does..

The chain punch is a drill designed to train several things and teach those things to beginners especially..

I wrote to one person asking about said drill:
Hi there..

This is a complex issue.. My point in saying what I say about this is that chain punching is not a technique... What that means is that it is indeed much more...

The CP is a drill that covers some very basic and core elements of the system..

It covers:

How wing chun strikes, the basic punch itself..

Clearing and hitting at the same time--doing two actions at once with the hands..one hitting one clearing...

How in a basic way we put punches (and other open hand strikes) together...you can chain palms, etc, as well as any other strike..

And economy in these actions as well as correct energy in release..

--------------------------

So, yes it's totally valid to punch repeatedly, just as in any style or method.. The point is that doing so is not a "technique" per se, it's just what it is punching over and over.. And that's fine, but it's just the beginning... There are also other methods and strikes better suited to finishing the fight..

There is also the issue of the horse here.. Folks must learn that each punch and strike is supported and powered by the body... We must see each strike for the power it must have alone, not just by doing more of them...

If we see "chain punching" as a technique then we tend to miss the other important points seen in the drill that is the 'chain punch drill'.. It's also easy to rely on this as a method--it's not.... It's not as effective used this way--the mad eggbeater attack... If it was then there would be little need for all the other training elements.. So chain punching isn't how we fight it's a drill, and in fighting sometimes simply how we connect strikes together..
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Rory continues
You have certain assumptions about what conflict is like. I f you are interested in self defense you will choose a martial art based on similarities to your assumptions. If the student isn’t careful and or becomes enamored of the system or instructor, he will ignore real experience if doesn’t match to his assumptions.
Thus the ‘style fixation’ we see in some discussions here now and then ….ends very badly for the practitioner who may find solace in a further assumption that saves face for himself
After studying his new style for some time, he chose to interfere in a conflict between a biker and someone who owed the biker money. John got stomped pretty badly. He feels it would have been much worse if he had stuck with his original martial art.
Van
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

Uh Bill, I WAS referring to using the empty jars instead of the spiffy, handmade jars you spent a pretty penny on. Since I am fundamentally cheap anyway and a dog owner, I can empathize with your predicament with Fido. Why do you think the Okinawans used those car parts for dumbells you keep referencing in Alan Dollar's book? New Englanders aren't the only ones known for thrift. I am on your side on the discussion. The other folks don't stand a chance with you, as far as I am concerned.

No need for the other stuff you wrote to me - not true at all and you let your temper get the better of you. You can delete it now.

Gene
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

:? :?: Careful not to let your dog pee in your jars. :wink:
Van
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gene

Wow... a jarring post to say the least. :roll: :lol:

I made the investment in jars, Gene, because a local Uechi teacher here managed to convince a potter to custom make some for us. I got five pair, thinking I'd sell them to interested parties through the years.

I do have an interest in pottery. The mother of a girlfriend of mine (many years back) used to be a professional potter in the artists colony at The Greenbrier. I still have some of her one-of-a-kind raku candle holders.

However I have yet to bring these training jars into the dojo. I just don't have a good way to protect them in rooms where hundreds come through each day.

I've been looking for years to work with someone good with their hands to join forces with me and design a reliable, utilitarian alternative. The idea is in my head; I just need a prototype and a production process. I believe there's a patent in it. One day...

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I believe I met the inventor, and tried this very device out. It was close, but no cigar. Sadly enough, the inventor didn't even know how the hand was supposed to be held. That led to the poor design. I offered some suggestions...

He has the right idea. Use existing equipment rather than getting crazy with the sand or custom weights and such.

I have something a bit more versatile in mind. And the grip would be different; This grip is all wrong.

- Bill
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

http://www.shureidousa.com/training/san ... bells.html

Image

However, they still don't allow for incremental weight increase neither are they the monster stones that David Elkins and Rik Lostritto wrote the article about awhile back.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

The grip on that is right, Dana, or at least close enough. The thumb will be forced into the correct orientation, and there isn't an "edge" on it.

And you are right; the versatility isn't there.

They also are nowhere near heavy enough (available in 13 lbs and 17.5 lbs). Nice to get started on, but...

- Bill
Bruise Lee
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Re: Is a cigar just a cigar?

Post by Bruise Lee »

JimHawkins wrote:
Bill Glasheen wrote:I am very clear in my approach to teaching martial techniques. Especially when it comes to martial movements in Sanchin kata, I am not interested in calling techniques as specific applications. An arm extension is just an arm extension. A circle is just a circle. A step is just a step. A turn is just a turn.

One word in particular I hate is the "b" word. Why? Because when doing a circle in kata, I see so many different applications. Others say "wauke block."

I don't do circle blocks. I do circles. To use a technical term, I am just practicing a "thingie" that happens to be a circle. I have many applications for those circles.
There's a lot going on there to respond to..

Is a circle just a circle?

No..

Just like a straight line isn't just a straight line or thrust...

They are specific actions designed to do something specific, which doesn't have to mean single application either... If you train "just a circle" instead of a particular motion, mechanic or action then you have moved away from training a specific tool, tactic or action.. At that point it's just training generic geometric shapes that are not specialized and therefore too general IMO....


We wan't to train correct mechanics NOT approximations of correct mechanics..

We also have circles in WCK.. There are different circles for different things and they are different, with different mechanics.. None of them have a singular application but they are specialized actions none the less... In order to use them and train them correctly they should be trained with not only the correct mechanics (kata) but with the correct stimulus and response (drilling)...
There Are No Blocks In Advanced Martial Arts
Of course there are.. This takes the extreme of the opposite view which holds these things as only blocks, where "block" is misrepresented as a passive solitary action...

In other words what are blocks?

Here we begin to move toward the truth:
The word for defensive technique in Japanese is instructive. Although it is often translated as “block” the word “uke” actually means “receive” as in how we move to effectively receive the combative energy (the attack) of the opponent.
Okay, now we are getting closer... But the crux of the problem still remains, the timing, the lack of time, the decision process, etc is all still there.... If blocks don't work because of timing problems then changing the meaning of the word doesn't eliminate these problems either... However making most actions just the same old attack on the center does simplify things greatly...

In close range CMA we have what is called bridging, it means contact between the tools or limbs of the combatants.... It's the bridge that we want, the contact, the connection....and some of these things are intended to do just that--make a connection and along the way deal with energy... Once there is a connection all these other rules of timing and hand eye coordination go out the window because now you are working with contact, feeling and alive energy interactions... A different ball game and one that many CMA specialize in.

We also must realize that there are low % moves and higher % moves... Yes, we prefer the latter but we don't throw out the former because they are lower %... Why? Because they may be the best option in the moment...
Misunderstanding number one: “a block is a shielding action.” In boxing the fighters do shield their face and torso from incoming attacks by covering up with their forearms. This is partly where the misunderstanding comes from. We have all seen boxers defend like this. However, if you are doing barehanded fighting, with no gloves to cushion and disperse the energy from the incoming attack, then the blunt force trauma of the attack to the forearms will quickly – after just a few hard blows from a strong attacker – damage them beyond use.
Agreed... Passive covering ain't so hot...
The second misunderstanding about blocks – and the more common one – is that blocks are interceptions. That is “blocks are like anti-missile techniques.”
Disagree here...

Intercepting is the name of the game...it's what receiving is all about.. It's all in how you do it...

Again these things/tools or actions we use from outside are intended to serve as bridging tools, and along the way they are also used to jam, control, steal balance, issue energy, protect and gain position...

They are not isolated and not intended to be used as a single move all purpose guaranteed fight ender..

Rather they are intended to help us move to the operating range of our tool box where we can then finish the job..
It is as if people who teach defending this way actually believe that you can perceive the incoming technique, process the information and respond decisively and accurately to it. You can’t.
Wrong.. The correct answer is you can't ALWAYS do that..

If there was no hope in responding decisively to an attack we would have to eliminate half of the KOs we've seen in fighting.... There are all kinds of ways to respond to attacks and the best of those ways will shut them down before they develop their attack... There is more to this stuff than a simple "you can't stop their attack" there are shades of gray... There is intercepting their intent, intercepting their attack--on the preparation, midway through the attack, and on completion of the attack... There is attacking the attack and on and on...

Many of these intercepts will use the very elements this author espouses later on.....
No matter how good you are if you are reacting to the opponent’s decision making, if you allow your opponent the initiative in the fight, however briefly, they will quickly outpace your ability to keep responding.
Yes if by intercepting you mean waiting for them--however it does not...
The reactive reflex arch is too long. You can pull this off in choreographed or predictable technique exchanges; and you may be able to do it where attack zones are limited (in sport matches where no attacks are allowed below the belt or to the back does set up a situation in which you have a highly predictable and relatively easily defendable target region.)
We can't always be the attacker... Meaning we can't always be the one making the first move.... It's that simple really.. So part of what this stuff is about is recapturing the offensive timing and that is what attacking the attack is all about, AND there are all kinds of ways to do that...
Using your arms as “anti-missile” interceptors can work under these limited conditions but it is far inferior to genuine defensive technique as embodied in kata and taught in actual combative arts. And which is required in self-defense action.
The arms have to do something when we intercept or when we are working to convert to offense.. One of the most effective ways to do this is to attack or displace the weapons that are coming into your space.. Either way we want to bridge or receive the energy in order to close range where connected combative tools come into their own..

And again there are many ways to do this all of which involves or should involve total body movement...

Still waiting for this guy to unveil the holy grail btw... Yawn..
Certainly it is essential to gain the initiative in the interaction immediately or at least as rapidly as possible. If we move properly in response to incoming force it is possible to simultaneously (in a single movement)

1. Reroute the incoming energy past our target region,
2. Reposition our body just outside the range of attack,
3. Off balance the opponent,
4. Damage the opponent’s attacking personal weapon (limb), and
5. Execute a counter and/or set up a counter attack that is launched without any extra motion of your body.

To do this we have to understand the use of the full body in movement.
And low and behold our hero finally addresses what you should do.. Let's note that most of the above is what intercepting is all about...

And so "blocking is too hard to do" but this isn't??? :lol:

Half of this stuff is what those "blocks" were supposed to do in the first place.. Again it seems we are victims of semantics....

And we discover that it's the same stuff he says can't work... Again it's all in the execution..

All of the above was intended to do these exact things... It's all a matter of phrasing here or in training for the dojo...

CMA tools and tactics are about bridging for these very reasons, because close range CMA are about energy issuing, tactile sensitivity and balance stealing and using attached methods for these very purposes...

Oh and lest I be remiss... Not all SD is about defense to striking which this seems to focus on entirely....
Sorry , not meant to derail, this is just a technical comment - I have long had a hard time following posts that have multiple quotes in them. Its hard to tell which ones are quotes and which are comments to the quotes. It would be nice if the quoted material was in a different color. I have been reading and occassionally commenting here for probably around a decade, so this is not meant to be an insult - I just find this post hard to follow because of all the lines, quotes and comments.
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robb buckland
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Blocking = Intercepting

Post by robb buckland »

If your "intercepting motions" merely redirect the offending weapon your energy should be better spent !! :lol: :lol:
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