A tribute to kata... and to Lucy

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:26 am

Does it help to look at art from a different perspective?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:31 am

f.Channell wrote:
Well here we have a Mona Lisa impacted by Marcel Duchamp.
If one little move in a kata is also altered, is it as upsetting to the whole picture?

No, his odd interpretation doesn't keep me awake at night. As a matter of fact, the blemish on the masterpiece IS his point. Obviously he made it well, Fred.

- Bill

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:40 am

We also have to guard against those "superiors" who try to tell us what the art means, or how it should be done.

F.

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:47 pm

What is martial art? Does the photo's of the Civil War qualify as martial art?
It's a strange combination the words "martial" and "art", don't you think?

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:51 pm

Rather than "Lucy" here is a soundtrack for my martial art.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbxfe7DMxVo

F.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:12 am

Were kata developed as artistic dances?

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:01 am

Nothing really to prove or disprove that Mike that I can think of.
In the case of Uechi at least I would say no just due to how short they are.
But if they were sections broken out of a longer series of movements I suppose an argument could be made for the possibility.
Certainly some of the physical movements and steps could have been inspired by artistic movement such as dance.
I dance horribly, but I've had friends say Karate training made them better dancers.
We have seen martial movements develop in tournaments settings into something which resembles dance or gymnastics more than a martial art, why couldn't the reverse be true.
In a recent trip to China, a Uechi friend had to perform his kata to music at a demo.
F.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:39 pm

f.Channell wrote:
I dance horribly, but I've had friends say Karate training made them better dancers.

I would argue that art, music, and dance makes for better Uechi fighters, and not the other way around. I strongly advocate my students pick up a musical instrument as part of their broader martial arts training. When working with people on partner exercises (prearranged or freeform), I can pick out the people who have done music and those who haven't. It's kind of like that "cobra" technique in Seisan vs. baseball. If you can't throw a baseball, forgetaboutit!

Aikido on the other hand improved my partner dancing skills, and vice versa.

Uechi Ryu is just too "bare boned" to have art for art's sake in it. Rather than be pure art, it begs for additional training and extracurricular activities.

My one connection - and the theme of this thread - has to do with the intent of the choreographer (or lyricist) vs. what the individual sees and interprets in that art medium. I see parallels here. I see Lennon having fun with the whole psychedelic theme, and acting dumb like a fox. I see him enjoying the double entendres, and making his art somewhat of a blank slate for the listener to paint on. To some extent, kata I like are in that fashion. They are about principles of movement, and the individual is free to use and interpret as (s)he sees fit.

- Bill

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:53 am

Yes Bill,

With Black Sabbath we have not double lyrics but a mood change. The destruction of Hippie sensibilities to the raw industrial urban wasteland.
A sound that seems to embrace war, yet lyrics which deny it. A different kind of double meaning.
Course with my 4.0 in Music History I could toss some Hildegard at ya.
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/composers/hildegard.html

I was reading some of Funakoshi's work this morning where he was discussing Okinawan dance and moves hidden within it. I don't think Uechi fermented long enough on the island to have integrated that dance tradition, but certainly it'sw practitioners could have used the pace and rythm.

F.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:48 am

f.Channell wrote:
I was reading some of Funakoshi's work this morning where he was discussing Okinawan dance and moves hidden within it. I don't think Uechi fermented long enough on the island to have integrated that dance tradition, but certainly it'sw practitioners could have used the pace and rythm..

This is true. Uechi Ryu is more like its no-nonsense, boxer rebellion era Chinese roots. What has been added is more of the same (bridge kata have little new) and some sport karate stuff. Otherwise little has changed.

It is worth mentioning though that the Uechis played musical instruments. I heard them at one of George's camps, circa 1985. Don't know the name of the stringed instrument and the style of music. It's a bit painful for a westerner to listen to (traditional Okinawa music) but music nonetheless.

Nestor Folta will get up and do some traditional Okinawa dances with his wife at demos. He's good at it.

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:57 pm

Problem here is some folks see it as a "science" rather than an art.but to get a perspective on John Lennon's song and compare it to karate or kung fu.....you have to wait 20 years after his death and ask someone in Okinawa or the Himalayas what it means to them..................my sons haven't a clue what LSD is...so lucy has no part in their lives.and any interpretations they make wouldn't be based on experience or knowledge.but maybe on what they had read or heard in folk lore........me I have played with "laughing Sam's dice" on occasion and I can speak from experience.......it's alright but I prefer an ice cold guiness whilst watching cricket.I find a Ploughman's lunch infinetly preferable to both .........but maybe that's an age thing

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:35 pm

jorvik wrote:
Problem here is some folks see it as a "science" rather than an art.

In my opinion, it can be both. It depends upon what aspect of the work you're talking about.

Mostly the use of the word "science" in martial arts is more of a vernacular thing.

jorvik wrote:
but to get a perspective on John Lennon's song and compare it to karate or kung fu.....

Strawman.

The topic is trying to understand the original intent of an artist, whether it's a martial choreographer, a lyricist, a poet, a musician, or whatever. Did the author mean something very specific? Did the author mean something quite general? Did the author intend for the individual to identify with the work in whatever way it made sense to them?

In my opinion, it depends upon what piece of work you're talking about.

jorvik wrote:
my sons haven't a clue what LSD is

If they are teenagers or college students, then don't be so sure.

Did you ever read Shakespeare? Doesn't his work demand that you do a little homework to understand the piece in its original context? Can the piece still be timeless? (Ever heard of West Side Story? Romanoff and Juliet?)

jorvik wrote:
I prefer an ice cold guiness

I prefer Lucy. A REAL Lucy.

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:04 pm

Quote
"Strawman.

The topic is trying to understand the original intent of an artist, whether it's a martial choreographer, a lyricist, a poet, a musician, or whatever. Did the author mean something very specific? Did the author mean something quite general? Did the author intend for the individual to identify with the work in whatever way it made sense to them? "In my case No not really

........a lot of what I am learning now comes in a pretty much unadulterated form..my teacher and his teacher are very close to the source.and yes there are changes.but in keeping with the principles of the style......that is not always the case...especially so when I did Tai chi

...it's what my friend Jim calls the " classical disconnect"..a fantastic and very erudite observation ...when folks get too far from the meaning of their style then you get all sorts of misunderstanding and bad interpretations, things which are pretty irrelevant take on monumental proportions

and eventually you end up with some sad version of kickboxing, which is not even as efficient as kickboxing.. So sad when the original style offered so much more

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:10 pm

jorvik wrote:
and eventually you end up with some sad version of kickboxing, which is not even as efficient as kickboxing.. So sad when the original style offered so much more

'Nother strawman.

cow flies by in the storm

Jo:Cow
.
cow flies by in the storm

Jo: 'Nother cow.

Bill: Actually I think that was the same one.

Melissa: I gotta go Julia, we got cows!

- Twister

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:36 pm

Don't really understand that one bill

however he might,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8