Japan Inc. falls on its face

[Van Canna]

The Suzuki was a better handler...so I sold the Yamaha and was about to buy the Zuki....then I changed my mind and bought a boat.

Part of my toy collection...

[Glenn]

who can forget the bombshell Pinto (probably lots of people).

Not if they saw the 1984 movie "Top Secret!"
Top Secret Pinto scene

[f.Channell]

LOL.....
Where did they find a pinto without rust in 1984?

F.

[IJ]

I think it's worth comparing the overall death rates of different machines. I've got a 2010 Prius. In theory, let's say my car begins to accelerate out of control. I put it in neutral. Ta-da. Meanwhile, it has an excellent crash test rating. Many a time, people get obsessed with a flaw that makes news, and increases the risk of death from one rare type of problem. They overlook the overall package. We can try to blame culture and lack of ritual suicide for this, but it's also an extremely rare complication that may not have been predictable. A part didn't work; only in after-market data did this become clear. This happens often with new drugs. Doesn't always mean the drug company was stupid or evil (although they sometimes bury hints of safety problems in literature they release). As for innovation, maybe they're not running on Mr. Fusion, but is anyone else on the forums averaging 56 mpg right now? I didn't think so.

Meanwhile, I guess this will help the US makers for a while, and there's nothing wrong with that in a recession.

[Bill Glasheen]

it's also an extremely rare complication that may not have been predictable. A part didn't work; only in after-market data did this become clear.

It's more than that, Ian.

Toyota has been receiving complaints for a considerable period of time.

let's say my car begins to accelerate out of control. I put it in neutral. Ta-da.

Their response - as was your knee jerk reaction above - was to blame the customer. Meanwhile... This completely ignores the philosophy that brought them where they are today (make the product customer proof), and it's completely ignorant of the Survival Stress Response.

I was once in a vehicle that experienced sudden acceleration from a stuck pedal. I did the right thing - in the large confines of my parent's property. I was similarly in a vehicle that my girlfriend's mother was driving when it experienced the same. I was a first-hand witness to her helplessly watching the vehicle plow into one ahead of her in the parking lot across JPA from Cabel Hall (at UVa). Simple thing to avoid? Dummy driver? The customer is wrong? I don't think so.

is anyone else on the forums averaging 56 mpg right now?

A Jetta TDI can beat that. But that is out of political favor because environmentalists in this country think diesel is bad. Never mind that it makes more sense than the insanely stupid, government subsidized corn-to-alcohol program in this country. I could think of worse things to do with oil that otherwise would be used to make french fries or stink up a land fill.

I guess this will help the US makers for a while, and there's nothing wrong with that in a recession.

In a word... karma. She's a beach.

- Bill

[IJ]

"Their response - as was your knee jerk reaction above..."

Nope. Wrong. I didn't blame the driver. This emergency response is obvious in retrospect and after we've been informed, but I haven't criticized those who ran into it (no pun intended) before it was all over the news.

Jetta TDI matching Prius fuel economy? Then good for them. I wish them plenty of success, although until a few weeks ago, it wouldn't have been wise to put German reliability ahead of Japanese. I don't buy that environmentalists are blocking a 50 mpg vehicle and permitting the sale of Hummers and other boat-cars. I think what you mean is diesel isn't fashionable with.... customers, broadly, not environmentalists, narrowly. Why not blame that on VW for their ineffective advertising? Or is kicking them not in this week?

[mhosea]

and it's completely ignorant of the Survival Stress Response.

I agree. I've handled that situation, too, but I don't think everybody will be able to. Perhaps I myself might not have handled it well if I had faced some extra difficulties. Note that the fatal Lexus crash in 2007 (floor mat problem then) is a case where the driver failed to come up with the solution. He burned his brakes out first, which could only have made it more difficult for him to think clearly. I don't know what else he may have tried before running out of road, ultimately killing himself and his family. He did not respond to the 911 operator's question of whether he could turn the car off or shift into neutral. Nevertheless, the incident stands as a counterexample to the conjecture that the buck can be passed to the driver.

[Valkenar]

But that is out of political favor because environmentalists in this country think diesel is bad.

Pardon my ignorance, but from what I've read diesel engines are more 30% fuel efficient than gas, but takes 25% more oil to produce. And doesn't diesel fuel also create more pollution per unit? I'm also not real impressed with biodiesel except that it does offer some energy independance, even if it's not environmentally friendly.

[IJ]

We're having parallel discussions here. Even if this situation were 100% remediable by an astute or even mentally impaired driver, you cannot pass the buck. It's not the driver's responsibility. This was not my point. Toyota should never do this even in some unforeseeable situation when it COULD, because it's bad PR. Agreed.

My point was that MY personal risk of death is going to be far lower in my Prius because *I* can easily deal with a stuck accelerator if that extremely rare event occurs, and meanwhile, my safety is enhanced by the vehicle and it's excellent crash test ratings / curtain airbags, etc. The Honda Accord I sold in transition to Prius has NOT had issues with accelerators, but lacked those curtain airbags, hence, any fool with a rollover prone SUV has his bumper pointed directly at my brain with nothing but window glass to protect me. This is true even thought the Accord is an excellent car (purchased as it was the CR recommended sedan for that year and many others). Many other crummy cars with crummy crash test ratings are on the road or will be purchased by people who are now terrified of Toyota's because of this rare and remediable event. Their risk of death is or will be higher in sum.

[Bill Glasheen]

Pardon my ignorance, but from what I've read diesel engines are more 30% fuel efficient than gas, but takes 25% more oil to produce. And doesn't diesel fuel also create more pollution per unit? I'm also not real impressed with biodiesel except that it does offer some energy independance, even if it's not environmentally friendly.

You threw a lot out there. Be patient with my responses.

Diesel fuel is inherently energy dense. It comes from longer-chain aliphatic and aromatic compounds.

It doesn't take MORE oil to produce it at all - particularly if that's the intent in your refining process. In Western Europe, OVER half the passenger vehicles sold now are diesel. Their refining processes are geared towards producing that fuel, with gasoline being a byproduct. It's the other way around in this country. They also produce diesel fuel with some of the lowest sulfur content. The U.S. has been slow to catch up on that account.

Diesel ENGINES are more appropriate for densely-populated areas, as they produce maximum torque at extremely low RPM. This has many benefits. First, the engines are simpler (with no ignition needed), so fewer things can go wrong. Second, they operate comfortably at lower RPM so last about twice as long. And finally, they give maximum boost at near-zero speed, so are ideally suited for stop-and-go traffic. They also work extremely well in pulling a load, so would suit an SUV and/or AWD loving consumer base just fine.

Another point... A standard gasoline engine is 25 percent efficient while a typical diesel engine converts over 30 percent of the fuel energy to mechanical energy.

The very first diesel engine was run on peanut oil. They can be made to run on most animal and vegetable oils/fats, providing additives are put in to make them flow at low temperatures. But it isn't just the idea that we can be energy independent here. Any oil produced today is by definition capturing CO2 from the atmosphere. So the net production of CO2 for biodiesel is zero. Nature giveth, and man returns.

Germany leads the world in the making of "clean diesel" engines. It's a collaborative effort on the part of Daimler and VW/Audi. Daimler "BlueTec" and VW TDI engines are pollution legal in all 50 states. Subaru has just designed the first ever opposing piston (boxer) diesel engine that will be appearing in this country within a year. (See First Drive: 2010 Subaru Forester 2.0D). New diesel engines have been setting land speed records for trucks, and winning races at Le Mans.

Diesel engines are also more commonly used underground (in mines) because they have much lower carbon monoxide emissions. That fuel is also safer underground as it won't explode and doesn't emit the same volume of toxic fumes.

And finally... the modern diesels for Mercedes and VW/Audi are actually QUIETER than their gasoline counterparts at highway speeds.

Producing even cleaner and more efficient diesel engines is still a hot topic of research in Germany, in Japan, and also in the U.S. (e.g. at Ford).

I take it you're not a football fan. If you were, you would have seen this ad during the Super Bowl.

Audi 2010 Green Car Super Bowl Commercial

- Bill

[Bill Bauknecht]

Great post Bill. I have talked to many folks who have an additional theory. The Toyota dealer gave some input as well. I have a 2009 Camry. I had no problem but called them and ask what to do about it. They gave me an appointment within two days. I waited just over an hour while they "fixed" whatever the accelerator problem was. No charge. Anyway,,,the publicity given to this Toyota problem, as you have seen, has been all over the place. Bill jokingly mentioned GM,,Government Motors. There is a lot of people thinking about this. What company benefited the most from the Toyota problem? GM!! The percentage of cars that had/have a problem is a very very small. Yet, the publicity exploded. I hate to think that there has been an intentional over exposure for the benefit of GM. Yet, it could very well be. I trust no one anymore. I just know that my Camry for 16,000 miles has been the usual great Toyota as my others have been. I realize that people have actually been killed, that of course, is unacceptable and a stain that is not easily removed. My Audi has a recall. Since I bought it new in 2003 and it has just over 20,000 miles on it, I can't compare. GM has a recall right now, but I haven't heard much on that, same with Honda, they have a recall but haven't heard much about that either. I've had at least one, sometimes two Toyotas since 1980. My other second cars have all been good, including 3 Caddy's. My Honda motorcycles were fantastic bikes, never a problem. In one year, this will all be water under the bridge and Toyota will be number one again. I can only hope that the American cars continue to improve and take their place where they should be, #1. Quality control is the name of the game.
BTW, my last three Toyota's, the Camry and two Sienna Vans, all assembled in this country. I have always felt guilty, NOT buying American. Right now I have a Japanese and a German car, I only feel a little bit guilty.
Practically everything else I own is made in CHINA. That's sad.
Bill Bauknecht

[MikeK]

We own a 15 year old Camry wagon that still gets up and goes every morning. It's got dings and wear and tear but it's still a very reliable car. We also owned a 84 Corolla GT-S which was one of my favorite cars that we've ever owned. We traded it in for the Camry when it's odometer ticked somewhere north of 150K and we had son number two on the way. Currently I tool around in a 2006 RAV4 with the V6 and it's a great little car. It's a nice highway cruiser but it's also fantastic in the snow. Service at Toyota has always been excellent IME. Needless to say I have a lot of good experiences with Toyota and will be visiting their showroom in the future.

On the other hand I also owned a Grand Prix and it was a piece of junk. It road wonderfully but was uncomfortable as all get out and left me stranded several times. If GM wants my business they'll have to really earn it as I don't trust their build quality based on past experience.
BTW, wasn't GM one of the first, if not the first to have cars suffer from uncontrolled acceleration?

[Glenn]

Needless to say I have a lot of good experiences with Toyota and will be visiting their showroom in the future.

I think ultimately that is what will happen in the long run, people loyal to one brand or another will not be much affected by this recall while those who tend to jump around from brand to brand anyway may shy away from Toyota for a while.

[Bill Glasheen]

I think ultimately that is what will happen in the long run, people loyal to one brand or another will not be much affected by this recall while those who tend to jump around from brand to brand anyway may shy away from Toyota for a while.

Bingo! Like Democrats, Republicans, and "Independents."

Don't think that there won't be trends if this kind of thing continues. Just ask GM.

- Bill

[Glenn]

Bingo! Like Democrats, Republicans, and "Independents."

True, although I think voters tend to be more fickle than car owners!