Sanchin is so hard to transmit...

[Dana Sheets]

This thread has nothing to do with "style" or "system" or whatnot. The principles of sanchin are (or at least should be) universal.

While it may not have been clear in my original post, my intention never was to critique the woman testing for her shodan or this variation of the choreography of sanchin. My focus in on the performance, role, and responsibility of the people checking her sanchin.

I'm aware of the "in-your-face" sanchin. The one video demonstration I saw did not resemble what I see in the video I posted in this thread. In that video the people checking were paying much closer attention to each other and the person doing the form and were not asking the impossible. I never said the approach wasn't valid. The approach is fine. I take issue with the execution in the example I posted.

I'd love to see a correctly proportioned amount of force at the correct angle delivered from a proportionally larger person to the shoulder and/or back of a practitioner the size of the checkers. I don't think it would qualify as "gentle harassment."

Harassment, gentle or otherwise is not what a checker of sanchin is supposed to be doing.

A sanchin check is not done to the student, sanchin checking is done for the student.

And, it isn't just supposed to be done in sanchin. Every/any kata can and should be checked.[/i]

[gmattson]

The message I try to present during seminars and dojo visits is "Checking a student's balance and strength during kata should build confidence, not destroy confidence."

The teachers in the clips you offered don't have a clue why they are doing what they are doing, other than trying to copy what they have seen on youtube!

I feel very sorry for students who believe this type of abuse is part of the martial arts and unfortunately, the few students from these dojo who end up teaching will probably continue to perpetuate this training myth.

[nosib]

BINGO!!!!! Thank you G.E.M.

[MikeK]

Here's another video of one of the sensei doing Tensho. I'm not real familiar with that kata or it's variations, but are the shoulders supposed to go up when breathing? I have to wonder how the student was breathing during their Sanchin test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx9DTV-j-I8

BTW, I did a quick look up on the style, Goshin Ryu and here's what I found.

The Goshin-Ryu system of karate taught by the Association is an Okinawan style comprised of the four major styles: Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Isshin-Ryu. Goshin means self-defense and ryu means style. The system utilizes techniques from the hard styles (hard blocks and one or two very hard counter attacks) and the so called soft styles ( more finesse type parries, evasive maneuvers followed up with multiple counter attacks).

[maxwell ainley]

Just wondering if individual instructors always do a Sanchin test with each student at every workout .

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's another video of one of the sensei doing Tensho. I'm not real familiar with that kata or it's variations, but are the shoulders supposed to go up when breathing? I have to wonder how the student was breathing during their Sanchin test.

You forgot to post the kata, Mike! Oops!!!

I know Tensho, so by all means post it.

BTW, I did a quick look up on the style, Goshin Ryu and here's what I found.

"The Goshin-Ryu system of karate taught by the Association is an Okinawan style comprised of the four major styles: Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Isshin-Ryu. Goshin means self-defense and ryu means style. The system utilizes techniques from the hard styles (hard blocks and one or two very hard counter attacks) and the so called soft styles ( more finesse type parries, evasive maneuvers followed up with multiple counter attacks)."

I believe the person who posed the origins and meaning of Goshin-Ryu is misinformed. To start with, I don't see any Uechi so far. It's all closed-fisted Goju. And then there is the meaning of Goshin Ryu. I'd have to see the characters to confirm this, but... I believe Goshin was meant to translate (literally) as hard or strong mind.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

George and Dana

I don't have a problem with the intensity of the checking and testing. Nobody was hurting her.

I agree 100% with the both of you that these 4 had no clue what they were doing. I'm not sure I would trust them "checking" me. That lack of trust might lead me to taking shots back at them. So we don't want to go there.

I do see merit in "gentle harassment" from all angles while doing the form. And I'm using the "h" word exactly as I mean to. There's something to be said for testing someone's ability to execute while having to deal with random poking and shoving from 4 different directions. I think this can be done as a means of building confidence rather than tearing it down.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Just wondering if individual instructors always do a Sanchin test with each student at every workout .

Excellent point.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Just wondering if individual instructors always do a Sanchin test with each student at every workout .

Excellent point.

- Bill

Bill ,
As you know from my perspective ,all the work out can be devoted to Sanchin,and say with a new person I don't do the test for well over the year .
One point is for months we have not got to hand guard positions ,once these aspects are established ,I have more of Sanchin's structure to test ,plus I would not test it every day ,plus could leave alone for weeks .
With someone more developed ,I would have a periodical type of test ,or I could switch to a period of daily tests .

[Joe Bellone]

There's a lot of value in this thread. The complexity and simplicity of Sanchin can take you in numerous directions. That's probably why people get so passionate on discussing what is the "right" way to do things.

My original comment was not to criticize but just to get different viewpoints that makes us think out of the box and not go down a negative slope. It's an important subject Dana raises and one that we all should be thinking about "why" we do the checking in the manner that we do it. Bill, Dana, Max, George Sensei all have very valid points that we should be thinking about.

To steal a phrase from Matt Thorton, "aliveness" is so important when we practice that sometimes students focus too much on doing things exactly as others do them, and sometimes by doing so their art gets lost. George Sensei and I had a very good conversation on Uechi "aliveness" and making the art relevant in today's world that really hit home with me. There's a lot of "core" Uechi-ryu in the stuff that I do.

Good points again, and thank you.

Good training,
Joe

[Dana Sheets]

I don't have a problem with the intensity of the checking and testing. Nobody was hurting her.

I'm not sure I would trust them "checking" me.

Why would you claim that she wasn't at risk for being hurt by her checkers and in the same breath say that you don't trust the checkers? That completely confuses me.

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't have a problem with the intensity of the checking and testing. Nobody was hurting her.

I'm not sure I would trust them "checking" me.

Why would you claim that she wasn't at risk for being hurt by her checkers and in the same breath say that you don't trust the checkers? That completely confuses me.

I said what I meant, and I meant what I said.

• I don't have a problem with the INTENSITY of the checking and testing.
• I DO agree with both of you (Dana, George) that the checkers/testers don't know what they are doing.
• Along the lines of doing stupid things - even at minor intensity... If someone started kicking my knee at an unnatural angle, I would take exception.

There is one Okinawan Uechi instructor in particular who is dangerous both in the intensity of his checks AND in his knowledge of the consequences of his blows to the human body. Decades ago he dislocated the knee of an American Uechi instructor just before he attended George's camp (where he mostly behaved). Years later I hear from Bruce that he was doing toe kicks in the hamstrings of the Germans - day in and day out - at a week-long German camp. His lines for Sanchin checking diminished each day. At Bob Campbell's Okinawa dan test (after he fought in the All Okinawa championships)... Said teacher started slamming his shutos on Bob Campbell's traps (from behind) while checking his Sanchin. Sorry... you're screwing with the medulla and you fuking know it. Shinjo Seiyu stood up, grabbed the perpetrator by the gi, threw him off the stage, touched Bob's stance, and told him to continue with his kata. (That particular soap opera is layers deep. )

THAT is dangerous and/or stupid on every dimension.

A well-conditioned athlete will not respond favorably when he gives someone permission to "check" them in a one-way affair and the teacher abuses the privilege either by intent or by lack of knowledge.

I hope I've cleared things up, Dana.

The bottom line is that I could take these four and show them how to do what they are doing a bit better. This isn't a lost cause by any stretch of the imagination. They are trying, they mean well, and they're close to the right idea. They just need to be operating from a stronger knowledge base.

Personally I'm glad that nobody filmed each and every thing I did as a teacher through the years, and put it up on YouTube. I've had the luxury of learning on the job without the specter of judgment by the peanut gallery.



- Bill

[MikeK]

Bill, Here's the Tensho kata.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx9DTV-j-I8

After looking at several Tensho kata from several styles, this performance was, unique.

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks, Mike!

OK... One viewing and I see this. Will take all of a few minutes to say it.

• There is potential in the form. This person means what he does and does what he means. There are extra wrist movements (koi no shippo tatte uchi) at the end, but... what-ever.
  
  But there are things I would suggest he do differently.
  
  • The breathing is wrong. He takes the time to inhale so he can exhale with each and every movement. No, no, no!!!!!
    
    
    
    This isn't because nobody does it that way. I'm not defending my view with the well-worn path; I know what I mean here. This demonstrates a lack of understanding of physiology during a life-threatening event. And the person is programming their movements to be a slave to breathing rather than breathing as a tool to use with movement. If ever there was an example where I want to argue with a certain non-Uechi vendor about exhaling with ALL movement, this is it.
    
    This kata has both yin and yang. You inhale with yin (a "receiving" motion or uke) because you are doing what your flinch response will do (gasp for air when surprised with a sudden and unexpected threat). You exhale with your amygdala-given breath because you can (it's there to use) and because it blends with your subsequent yang movement. Plus... learning to move with BOTH inhales and exhales - or to move in-between breaths as well - frees you to act no matter what.
  • Individual circles should be centered on body's center line, and not on shoulder line. Simple to correct. Some will argue with me on this. Fine.
  • In the rising wrist movements, he's leading with the wrong thing. No to leading with hand knuckles. Yes to leading with wrist, and all of hand dangling.

Not so bad. I've seen a lot worse.

- Bill

P.S. My philosophy about breathing:

• Be breathed by your movement. Some movements make you inhale; some make you exhale. Go with how the core makes this happen.
• Learn how to breathe when you need to take a breath.
• Follow the natural breathing of flinch responses.
• Make the resistance to inhale or exhale match the load you are bearing when you move.

[MikeK]

But we are discussing people of advanced rank needing correction, and who are passing along these glitches to others.

The idea that Sanchin is hard to transmit is interesting, but I don't see why it should be if it is universal, unless, the people transmitting it don't fully understand the goals, training and testing methodology of it. In other words GIGO. (This is not including the Uechi folks that I've met).