Dana, I took your advice and compared male vs female fist on two untrained hands. My six year old son and my wife. My observations were identical to what you have posted.
How do you suggest this difference be dealt with in training. ( the seiken was not originally part of Kanshiwa Kata, maybe the old shoken method was better.)I would be interested in your opinion as to the value of the seiken for a women martial practioner.
Uechij, the injury of the two small knuckles of hand is so prevelant from striking incorrectly that this injury is commonly refered to as "A Boxer's Fracture".
This fracture occurs when the small knucles are used to strike. This facture is more likely to occur when striking with a hook and landing with the junior knuckles instead of the big ones.
These two small knuckles are not properly suported for striking.
Example:
Make a good strong seiken hold it out extended ,wrist straight.
Have some one strike those two big knucles with a palm heel shot. The force will travel through the knuckles,wrist,long bones of the arm and eventually pop the back of the shoulder. This is much the the way energy is absorbed when making contact with a good seiken strike.
Now hold the seiken out as before and have your partner deliver the palm heel to the ring and pinky knucles.
The force no longer exits via the shoulder. It tends to exit via the opposite side of the hand at the wrist. Not much to absorb the shot here. No major bones and muscles to suport the tiny little bones.
So when we strike some thing really solid,we tend to shear off the knuckles. If were unlucky we spit the little guys lenght wise,and that takes a little longer mend.
There is no way I can do knuckle push ups with all four on the floor if my wrist is straight. The knuckles of the strong side of the hand are two large.
Just my 2 cents
Laird
Women and men make different fists
Moderator: Available
Women and men make different fists
Uglyelk,
I like your explanation using the palm heel to the knuckles. With the pushups you are right, the two big knucles should be supporting your weight. However, I was using the floor as merely a straight edge to form the the fist into a more square shape. Although, the first two knuckles will always protrude out further because of their size. I have also seen many people, male and female, who can't completely close their hand to make a fist, so I guess other contributing factors have to be considered as well. I also had my wife try sqeezing a fist but didn't really see much difference. I will further investigate at my next class.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 25, 2002).]
I like your explanation using the palm heel to the knuckles. With the pushups you are right, the two big knucles should be supporting your weight. However, I was using the floor as merely a straight edge to form the the fist into a more square shape. Although, the first two knuckles will always protrude out further because of their size. I have also seen many people, male and female, who can't completely close their hand to make a fist, so I guess other contributing factors have to be considered as well. I also had my wife try sqeezing a fist but didn't really see much difference. I will further investigate at my next class.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 25, 2002).]
Women and men make different fists
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I tried for 5 years to punch with the fist you describe - I could not hit full power - either my wrist would break or my body would slow my punch.
I offer that perhaps not all hands, wrists, and arms are identical. That there may be slight differences in how things line up and some of the differences may be attributable to gender. Have you worked with many women?
I was disappointed for years between how hard I knew I was hitting in kata and then how little of the energy I was able to transfer into a bag with a seiken. Shokens I could always hit as hard, if not harder than most of my male dojomates. Bushikens same. But that damn seiken fist was always my weakest.
I have a water heavy bag at home. The kind with a base that sits on the floor that is full of water. Previously I've only been able to rock it slightly with a seiken. Last night I was able to make it rock back a foot with my punch. And I penetrated trough the "bag" enough to feel the center plastic sleeve that is the top of the base. That is something I've only previously felt during front kicks. I did it with the fist you see in the above pictures.
Why, after 5 years, was I not able to make the seiken fist you describe work? Why after only 2 weeks can I now punch significantly harder with my new seiken?
I need to take some more pictures to show you how far out of line my index knuckle is to my arm bone when I make the traditional seiken. And how in-line it is when I make my new seiken.
Maybe I'm a genetic freak. But I don't think so. Try your palm-heel drill with a woman - ask her to drescribe what she feels. try not to tell her what to expect. I'll try the same thing tonight.
Let's compare notes.
Dana
Uechij - what I'm suggesting is that perhaps the anatomy is what is different.The reason we hit with the index and middle knuckles has to do with the anatomy of the hand.
I tried for 5 years to punch with the fist you describe - I could not hit full power - either my wrist would break or my body would slow my punch.
I offer that perhaps not all hands, wrists, and arms are identical. That there may be slight differences in how things line up and some of the differences may be attributable to gender. Have you worked with many women?
I was disappointed for years between how hard I knew I was hitting in kata and then how little of the energy I was able to transfer into a bag with a seiken. Shokens I could always hit as hard, if not harder than most of my male dojomates. Bushikens same. But that damn seiken fist was always my weakest.
I have a water heavy bag at home. The kind with a base that sits on the floor that is full of water. Previously I've only been able to rock it slightly with a seiken. Last night I was able to make it rock back a foot with my punch. And I penetrated trough the "bag" enough to feel the center plastic sleeve that is the top of the base. That is something I've only previously felt during front kicks. I did it with the fist you see in the above pictures.
Why, after 5 years, was I not able to make the seiken fist you describe work? Why after only 2 weeks can I now punch significantly harder with my new seiken?
I need to take some more pictures to show you how far out of line my index knuckle is to my arm bone when I make the traditional seiken. And how in-line it is when I make my new seiken.
Maybe I'm a genetic freak. But I don't think so. Try your palm-heel drill with a woman - ask her to drescribe what she feels. try not to tell her what to expect. I'll try the same thing tonight.
Let's compare notes.
Dana
Women and men make different fists
Dana,
The anatomy that I was refering to was for support on impact, not in shaping the fist, You asked why we used the first two knuckles instead of the last two when striking. I have heard of boxers who could punch harder than their wrist could support, which brought their career to end quickly. Maybe your punching power is similar. Have you tried comparing your wrist size and strength to other woman your build? I do agree with you that womans hands are probably shaped differently than mens. I often feel this is the contributing reason why some of the techniques are better executed by the Okinawans than Americans (different anatomy). I have worked with quite a few woman in my teaching carrer and honestly I have to say they haven't had any complaints (at least they didn't tell me about it). My next class is tomorrow night, so I will try what you recommended, it will be interesting to see. I am looking forward to comparing notes.
The anatomy that I was refering to was for support on impact, not in shaping the fist, You asked why we used the first two knuckles instead of the last two when striking. I have heard of boxers who could punch harder than their wrist could support, which brought their career to end quickly. Maybe your punching power is similar. Have you tried comparing your wrist size and strength to other woman your build? I do agree with you that womans hands are probably shaped differently than mens. I often feel this is the contributing reason why some of the techniques are better executed by the Okinawans than Americans (different anatomy). I have worked with quite a few woman in my teaching carrer and honestly I have to say they haven't had any complaints (at least they didn't tell me about it). My next class is tomorrow night, so I will try what you recommended, it will be interesting to see. I am looking forward to comparing notes.
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Dana Sheets
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Women and men make different fists
Uechij,
I wasn't confused about punching with the first two knuckles vs the last two.
I'm more focused on the idea of just the 1st knuckle. VS. the first two.
My wrists are normal sized. And stronger than any woman my size I've met.
Uglyelk - I'm not prepared to make a broad comment on how the seiken should be trained for women...at least not yet. But I think this is worth exploring more, with more women.
Dana
I wasn't confused about punching with the first two knuckles vs the last two.
I'm more focused on the idea of just the 1st knuckle. VS. the first two.
My wrists are normal sized. And stronger than any woman my size I've met.
Uglyelk - I'm not prepared to make a broad comment on how the seiken should be trained for women...at least not yet. But I think this is worth exploring more, with more women.
Dana
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tunetigress
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Women and men make different fists
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dmsdc:
Uechij - what I'm suggesting is that perhaps the anatomy is what is different.
I tried for 5 years to punch with the fist you describe - I could not hit full power - either my wrist would break or my body would slow my punch.
I offer that perhaps not all hands, wrists, and arms are identical. That there may be slight differences in how things line up and some of the differences may be attributable to gender. Have you worked with many women?
I was disappointed for years between how hard I knew I was hitting in kata and then how little of the energy I was able to transfer into a bag with a seiken. Shokens I could always hit as hard, if not harder than most of my male dojomates. Bushikens same. But that damn seiken fist was always my weakest.
Why, after 5 years, was I not able to make the seiken fist you describe work? Why after only 2 weeks can I now punch significantly harder with my new seiken?
Maybe I'm a genetic freak. But I don't think so.
Dana, I may never get away from this computer and downstairs to my bag if I keep reading your posts! I have been totally fascinated by your fist observations, so had to see for myself! I had never thought of why my fist was different from the guys, except for being so much smaller, of course! Well I believe you are absolutely right about it being a difference of female anatomy. I cannot even make a 'proper' male-style fist and do a thing with it. I realize now that all along I have been using the 'female' fist you have described. In Kenpo there is some latitude to develop your individual style, so I never gave the issue a second thought. After researching your findings, I find that upon punching with a 'male' style fist, I have absolutely no power at the full extension of my arm, unlike my 'female' fist, with which I felt power right through the fullest extension of my punch. I found this particularly telling on my 'weak' left side! _(_)_ Tunetigress
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Uechij - what I'm suggesting is that perhaps the anatomy is what is different.
I tried for 5 years to punch with the fist you describe - I could not hit full power - either my wrist would break or my body would slow my punch.
I offer that perhaps not all hands, wrists, and arms are identical. That there may be slight differences in how things line up and some of the differences may be attributable to gender. Have you worked with many women?
I was disappointed for years between how hard I knew I was hitting in kata and then how little of the energy I was able to transfer into a bag with a seiken. Shokens I could always hit as hard, if not harder than most of my male dojomates. Bushikens same. But that damn seiken fist was always my weakest.
Why, after 5 years, was I not able to make the seiken fist you describe work? Why after only 2 weeks can I now punch significantly harder with my new seiken?
Maybe I'm a genetic freak. But I don't think so.
Dana, I may never get away from this computer and downstairs to my bag if I keep reading your posts! I have been totally fascinated by your fist observations, so had to see for myself! I had never thought of why my fist was different from the guys, except for being so much smaller, of course! Well I believe you are absolutely right about it being a difference of female anatomy. I cannot even make a 'proper' male-style fist and do a thing with it. I realize now that all along I have been using the 'female' fist you have described. In Kenpo there is some latitude to develop your individual style, so I never gave the issue a second thought. After researching your findings, I find that upon punching with a 'male' style fist, I have absolutely no power at the full extension of my arm, unlike my 'female' fist, with which I felt power right through the fullest extension of my punch. I found this particularly telling on my 'weak' left side! _(_)_ Tunetigress
------------------
Women and men make different fists
Dana,
My results are in. I have a small class but here they are anyhow:
Tested 6
4 felt stronger with your "woman’s Fist." (Sorry, didn't know what else to call it)
2 felt stronger with the traditional seiken.
The two who liked the seiken said they preferred it because the "woman’s fist" left all the impact on one knuckle instead of dissipating it over the surface of two.
All of them definitely shape their fist just like yours in the picture, much differently than a mans. You are on to something here, which may spare injury to a female’s hand during impact. I wonder if it has to do with gender or environmental and social influence. Growing up, boys are taught to use tools, shoot guns, etc., where girls are taught to engage in less physical activities with their hands. I wonder if this has any bearing on the formation of anatomical structure and the ability to shape a fist? Anyway, just thinking outloud, I hope this helps for your research.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 25, 2002).]
My results are in. I have a small class but here they are anyhow:
Tested 6
4 felt stronger with your "woman’s Fist." (Sorry, didn't know what else to call it)
2 felt stronger with the traditional seiken.
The two who liked the seiken said they preferred it because the "woman’s fist" left all the impact on one knuckle instead of dissipating it over the surface of two.
All of them definitely shape their fist just like yours in the picture, much differently than a mans. You are on to something here, which may spare injury to a female’s hand during impact. I wonder if it has to do with gender or environmental and social influence. Growing up, boys are taught to use tools, shoot guns, etc., where girls are taught to engage in less physical activities with their hands. I wonder if this has any bearing on the formation of anatomical structure and the ability to shape a fist? Anyway, just thinking outloud, I hope this helps for your research.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 25, 2002).]
Women and men make different fists
Becky & Dana:
I checked out the picture; no, it's not the form I was describing. What's "wrong" is that the thumb is pressing down on TOP of the index finger.
Becky, what I meant by the "invisible trigger..." is this:
Some people form a Shoken by curling the 2nd,3rd and 4th fingers into the palm, and then leaving the index finger sticking out as if wrapped around the trigger of a hand-held pistol. The thumb is usually wrapped around the 2nd finger.
Although the index finger knuckle is pointed straight ahead, it is unsupported.
Here's my method as best I can "literize" it; I will try to get a digital photo...
1: Curl the fingertips into the centre of the palm.
2: Bring the middle knuckle of the index finger out until IT (not the longer bone) is pointing straight ahead, in line with the arm. There is a crease formed inside the finger which should point straight ahead.
3: Now slide the thumb sideways against the index finger so that the the following checkpoints align:
1: The tip of the thumbnail sits on, and does not extend past the middle knuckle of your 2nd finger.
2: The first knuckle of the thumb is pressing as hard as possible against the top of the index-fingernail.
I can punch a "giving" target as hard as I like with this fist without pain or damage.
I know it sounds complicated but it's not.
I promise I will get a picture! I will get a top/bottom/front/both-side sequence for you to tear into!
I also have an informal "fist survey" to share...more later!
I checked out the picture; no, it's not the form I was describing. What's "wrong" is that the thumb is pressing down on TOP of the index finger.
Becky, what I meant by the "invisible trigger..." is this:
Some people form a Shoken by curling the 2nd,3rd and 4th fingers into the palm, and then leaving the index finger sticking out as if wrapped around the trigger of a hand-held pistol. The thumb is usually wrapped around the 2nd finger.
Although the index finger knuckle is pointed straight ahead, it is unsupported.
Here's my method as best I can "literize" it; I will try to get a digital photo...
1: Curl the fingertips into the centre of the palm.
2: Bring the middle knuckle of the index finger out until IT (not the longer bone) is pointing straight ahead, in line with the arm. There is a crease formed inside the finger which should point straight ahead.
3: Now slide the thumb sideways against the index finger so that the the following checkpoints align:
1: The tip of the thumbnail sits on, and does not extend past the middle knuckle of your 2nd finger.
2: The first knuckle of the thumb is pressing as hard as possible against the top of the index-fingernail.
I can punch a "giving" target as hard as I like with this fist without pain or damage.
I know it sounds complicated but it's not.
I promise I will get a picture! I will get a top/bottom/front/both-side sequence for you to tear into!
I also have an informal "fist survey" to share...more later!
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Women and men make different fists
Hello All,
I have been lurking in the background and not participating since returning from Singapore. Sometimes it takes all my effort just to keep up with all the posts.
tunetigress said something about her training that is so very important, I wanted to make note of it.......
"I cannot even make a 'proper' male-style fist and do a thing with it. I realize now that all along I have been using the 'female' fist you have described. In Kenpo there is some latitude to develop your individual style, so I never gave the issue a second thought."
A good teacher of martial arts will always show some leeway with regard to technique as it difers from person to person.
It should be noted that the fist which is getting so much play in this thread is not even a "traditional" Uechi Fist. I prefer the open hand myself, the one-knuckle I have learned to make use of and I have forgotten the japanese terms for these things.
This line of discussion, despite its not being "traditional" Uechi, certainly deserves all the attention and more and more and more....
Hope all are well and, of course, congrats to dana whose previous handle I could never make sense of......Peace to all
I have been lurking in the background and not participating since returning from Singapore. Sometimes it takes all my effort just to keep up with all the posts.
tunetigress said something about her training that is so very important, I wanted to make note of it.......
"I cannot even make a 'proper' male-style fist and do a thing with it. I realize now that all along I have been using the 'female' fist you have described. In Kenpo there is some latitude to develop your individual style, so I never gave the issue a second thought."
A good teacher of martial arts will always show some leeway with regard to technique as it difers from person to person.
It should be noted that the fist which is getting so much play in this thread is not even a "traditional" Uechi Fist. I prefer the open hand myself, the one-knuckle I have learned to make use of and I have forgotten the japanese terms for these things.
This line of discussion, despite its not being "traditional" Uechi, certainly deserves all the attention and more and more and more....
Hope all are well and, of course, congrats to dana whose previous handle I could never make sense of......Peace to all
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Dana Sheets
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Women and men make different fists
Uechij,
My teacher asked me to slowly introduce the idea in my school. So at this point I've only worked with 5 students. 4 of the 5 prefer the "woman's fist". Now a funny thing came up while we were working on it.
If you make a shoken fist - most folks will line up the end of that shoken with their radius. Now, if you don't move anything else but just tuck that finger into a normal seiken - you end up with a fist aligned very closely the "woman's fist" of this thread.
But since some of the folks were men who prefered the other fist I don't want to keep calling it a "woman's fist" because it may not be accurate. I mean as we've seen in this thread there's at least three or four ways to make a shoken. Could be there's a couple different ways to make a seiken. One way with two knuckles, one way with one knuckle.
It just seems that the one knuckle seiken really works well for women.
You know what might be really interesting? To get one of those kicking shields that have an impact meter on it and set myself up at GEM's camp with a chart and ask everyone to "Take The Seiken Challenge".
Have them hit the shield with their regular seiken and then present the one knuckle seiken and have them hit the bag a few times.
Most likely they won't be able to hit as hard with a technique they just learned -- but if they could, or even hit harder, that would be something wouldn't it?
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited February 27, 2002).]
My teacher asked me to slowly introduce the idea in my school. So at this point I've only worked with 5 students. 4 of the 5 prefer the "woman's fist". Now a funny thing came up while we were working on it.
If you make a shoken fist - most folks will line up the end of that shoken with their radius. Now, if you don't move anything else but just tuck that finger into a normal seiken - you end up with a fist aligned very closely the "woman's fist" of this thread.
But since some of the folks were men who prefered the other fist I don't want to keep calling it a "woman's fist" because it may not be accurate. I mean as we've seen in this thread there's at least three or four ways to make a shoken. Could be there's a couple different ways to make a seiken. One way with two knuckles, one way with one knuckle.
It just seems that the one knuckle seiken really works well for women.
You know what might be really interesting? To get one of those kicking shields that have an impact meter on it and set myself up at GEM's camp with a chart and ask everyone to "Take The Seiken Challenge".
Have them hit the shield with their regular seiken and then present the one knuckle seiken and have them hit the bag a few times.
Most likely they won't be able to hit as hard with a technique they just learned -- but if they could, or even hit harder, that would be something wouldn't it?
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited February 27, 2002).]
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gmattson
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Women and men make different fists
Tony: Not sure if it is my computer, but I wasn't able to view Dana's picture. I checked the code and it appears ok: 
**here is the code. In order for you to see it, I've replaced a "[" with a "{". Any suggestions?
{IMG]http://www.geocities.com/dmsdc/weaponsfists.gif[/IMG]
[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited February 27, 2002).]
**here is the code. In order for you to see it, I've replaced a "[" with a "{". Any suggestions?
{IMG]http://www.geocities.com/dmsdc/weaponsfists.gif[/IMG]
[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited February 27, 2002).]
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Tony-San
Women and men make different fists
http://www.geocities.com/dmsdc/weaponsfists.gif
Looks like Geocities won't allow pictures to be loaded from their site via IMG tags. bummer. Get a free picture account at http://www.imageevent.com
[This message has been edited by Tony-San (edited February 27, 2002).]
Looks like Geocities won't allow pictures to be loaded from their site via IMG tags. bummer. Get a free picture account at http://www.imageevent.com
[This message has been edited by Tony-San (edited February 27, 2002).]
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uechiwoman
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Women and men make different fists
I am very happy with the "new" fist!!! I went from going ka-dink on the bag to KA-BAM!!! I can feel the energy of the strike go out through my shoulder in a clean line instead of dissipating in the wrist. I always felt that I had tons of power behind my punch, but that my body would not let me make use of it to protect my wrist. This is a small yet amazing alignment change!!! I look forward to hearing if and how this works for other people. So far, so good!
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tunetigress
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Women and men make different fists
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by uechiwoman:
I am very happy with the "new" fist!!! I went from going ka-dink on the bag to KA-BAM!!! I can feel the energy of the strike go out through my shoulder in a clean line instead of dissipating in the wrist. I always felt that I had tons of power behind my punch, but that my body would not let me make use of it to protect my wrist. This is a small yet amazing alignment change!!! I look forward to hearing if and how this works for other people. So far, so good! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yes! Same here. I have a bag here in my basement and just had to run down and experiment. Julie (the Black Belt that comes here to train me) and I have been going around looking at fists now and find that your observations are very similar to ours. We both felt the power of our punches was far more focussed and that power was most concentrated in the muscle structure along the inside of the arm, allowing a more extended stance for some reason. Anyway it is definitely giving us lots to talk about that none of us here in our area in Canada had even considered before. Respectfully, _(_)_ Tunetigress (and Jules)
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I am very happy with the "new" fist!!! I went from going ka-dink on the bag to KA-BAM!!! I can feel the energy of the strike go out through my shoulder in a clean line instead of dissipating in the wrist. I always felt that I had tons of power behind my punch, but that my body would not let me make use of it to protect my wrist. This is a small yet amazing alignment change!!! I look forward to hearing if and how this works for other people. So far, so good! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yes! Same here. I have a bag here in my basement and just had to run down and experiment. Julie (the Black Belt that comes here to train me) and I have been going around looking at fists now and find that your observations are very similar to ours. We both felt the power of our punches was far more focussed and that power was most concentrated in the muscle structure along the inside of the arm, allowing a more extended stance for some reason. Anyway it is definitely giving us lots to talk about that none of us here in our area in Canada had even considered before. Respectfully, _(_)_ Tunetigress (and Jules)
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Women and men make different fists
Dana: I have the jpegs of my fist...how do I include them in a post / reply?
