Hello all,
I just have a question to the Uechiryu people on their Sanchin, just out of curiosity.
In an older Isshinryu book, there is a diagram drawn by Shimabuku Kichiro Sensei, about proper order for tensing the muscles in Sanchin. Now, I do not have that diagram in front of me, and do not recall the exact order, but he said that if the order was off, one may face illness.
My question is not about the truth or lack thereof in such statements, but whether or not in Uechiryu such a thing is taught during Sanchin?
In other words, are you taught "tighen A first, then B then C" or is the tension simultaneous and constant during the tensing phase?
Thanks for your time.
Joe Swift
Assistant Instructor
Mushinkan Dojo
Kanazawa, Japan
Sanchin Question
Moderator: Available
Sanchin Question
Although I am a very beginning beginner, I thought I might as well contribute even though I am just starting. But, I was taught to tighten from the bottom up. For example feet to legs to hips to stomach etc. I try and tighten my calves, then thighs, then just keep going up.
That's what I learned. I'm definetly intrested in hearing the responses though since I'm currently still working on learning my sanchin.
just my limited knowledge,
KT
That's what I learned. I'm definetly intrested in hearing the responses though since I'm currently still working on learning my sanchin.
just my limited knowledge,
KT
Sanchin Question
Joe,
Uechi-ryu gets most of its power from the floor on the back foot. My sensei has taught me to tighten from the floor up ex: feet, calves, thighs, etc. As for illness from change of order i don't know. Changing the order (i have found) can affect your stance ballance and strength however. Anyway I hope that was of some help. good luck in your training.
Kage.
Uechi-ryu gets most of its power from the floor on the back foot. My sensei has taught me to tighten from the floor up ex: feet, calves, thighs, etc. As for illness from change of order i don't know. Changing the order (i have found) can affect your stance ballance and strength however. Anyway I hope that was of some help. good luck in your training.
Kage.
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maurice richard libby
Sanchin Question
Joe,
interesting question, I'v been wondering this myself, partly because every Uechi-ryu practitioner I've ever asked answers differently.
I first learned sanchin from a student of Hidy Ochiai--it was a different version than any other I've seen since. The interesting thing was that we were taught to tense from the tanden out. This was because power emenated from there. It's still my favourite way of doing it.
maurice
------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
interesting question, I'v been wondering this myself, partly because every Uechi-ryu practitioner I've ever asked answers differently.
I first learned sanchin from a student of Hidy Ochiai--it was a different version than any other I've seen since. The interesting thing was that we were taught to tense from the tanden out. This was because power emenated from there. It's still my favourite way of doing it.
maurice
------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Sanchin Question
Joe
I had to digest your question a bit before responding. My first reaction is to point out that the Isshin ryu sanchin and Uechi sanchin are done differently.
Isshin ryu - like Goju ryu - uses dynamic tension accompanied with "dragon breathing" during the body of the kata. Uechi sanchin does not have that dynamic tension and kabuki breathing. If you do this right, it is very healthy. Doing it right involves a proper restriction of the exhale as well as an equal restriction of the inhale. This creates equal and opposite effects on the intrapleural pressure. If you do it wrong (omit or minimize the restricted inhale), you can unnecessarily elevate your blood pressure during the execution of the kata. That is not good for your cardiovascular system.
What the others have described above is very different. There you are talking about the order of tension from the bow to a stationary position in sanchin stance. Personally I have not been taught an order, nor can I think of a good reason (that makes physiologic sense) why order is important.
Perhaps something was lost in the translation, and the real issue is what I wrote above. Or, perhaps people saw ill effects associated with sanchin training, and attributed it to the wrong thing. I gave a first-principles explanation for how something very different in sanchin could cause ill effects. Perhaps it's a first-principles conclusion based on a chi thing - something I personally don't put much weight in. Who knows??
Thanks to others for their input. Maybe there's more light to be shed on the subject.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited May 17, 2000).]
I had to digest your question a bit before responding. My first reaction is to point out that the Isshin ryu sanchin and Uechi sanchin are done differently.
Isshin ryu - like Goju ryu - uses dynamic tension accompanied with "dragon breathing" during the body of the kata. Uechi sanchin does not have that dynamic tension and kabuki breathing. If you do this right, it is very healthy. Doing it right involves a proper restriction of the exhale as well as an equal restriction of the inhale. This creates equal and opposite effects on the intrapleural pressure. If you do it wrong (omit or minimize the restricted inhale), you can unnecessarily elevate your blood pressure during the execution of the kata. That is not good for your cardiovascular system.
What the others have described above is very different. There you are talking about the order of tension from the bow to a stationary position in sanchin stance. Personally I have not been taught an order, nor can I think of a good reason (that makes physiologic sense) why order is important.
Perhaps something was lost in the translation, and the real issue is what I wrote above. Or, perhaps people saw ill effects associated with sanchin training, and attributed it to the wrong thing. I gave a first-principles explanation for how something very different in sanchin could cause ill effects. Perhaps it's a first-principles conclusion based on a chi thing - something I personally don't put much weight in. Who knows??
Thanks to others for their input. Maybe there's more light to be shed on the subject.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited May 17, 2000).]
Sanchin Question
Just to toss in 2 cents... I was never taught an order to tense into, but after trying it multiple times watching just for the order, I'm pretty sure it's chest then the rest of the body for me. The main focus was on after you had tensed up your entire body, so that it actually was all tense.
Adam,
The lowly white belt
Adam,
The lowly white belt
Sanchin Question
The thing I work on, tension-wise, in my sanchin isn't really order, but sort of a price is right concept. Enough, without going over. For example:
Tension is key in a fist, therefore the forearm, so you hit with a stable weapon; it is key in the lats, so you lock the shoulder down and do not dissipate striking power in a floppy shoulder.
On the other hand, if you tense the whole arm, you fight your own motion out; this is the objective in the goju and isshin-ryu sanchins (isshin being half based in goju) to provide exercise, but not so much in the Uechi sanchin. Here we attempt to cultivate focus or impact; unlike the before mentioned styles, the effort is not on maximal power with a closed fist but on speed/impact with a sharp weapon, ie shoken, hiraken, etc.
Tension is required in the belly for protection and locking of the hips in place, so, as with the shoulder, efficient transfer of power takes place. Tension is required in the legs for a stable base and power source. Bearing down (Valsalva) with excessive forced breathing doesn't enhance any of these goals and raises your blood pressure excessively, turns you purple, and speeds the deevelopment of hemmorhoids. Excessive tension in the legs impairs your mobility.
So the trick is selective tension or fluidity, mobility and speed despite power--I think of this as one of the three conflicts. The Goju/Isshin sanchins have power at the expense of the other attributes. And I prefer selective tension to indiscriminate tension because it makes you more efficiently use your lower body strength--transfering it to the hands.
Being a solid muscular rock makes for impressive sanchin demonstrations, of course, but this kind of strength can't be used in a fight (not to the extent it's used in a kata) because it makes you rather immobile and stiff. You might do well soaking up punishment, but that's about all you can do if you do a isshin style sanchin during combat (I knew someone who did isshin and complained constantly about a 3 minute dynamic-breathing kata duration rule she faced.) This is not to say it isn't acceptable exercise, of course.
So maybe the caution about tension relates to an unhealthy valsalva... maybe it relates to excessive tension getting you beat up.
[PS Bill has a fuller discussion of breathing mechanics in the articles section.]
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited May 18, 2000).]
Tension is key in a fist, therefore the forearm, so you hit with a stable weapon; it is key in the lats, so you lock the shoulder down and do not dissipate striking power in a floppy shoulder.
On the other hand, if you tense the whole arm, you fight your own motion out; this is the objective in the goju and isshin-ryu sanchins (isshin being half based in goju) to provide exercise, but not so much in the Uechi sanchin. Here we attempt to cultivate focus or impact; unlike the before mentioned styles, the effort is not on maximal power with a closed fist but on speed/impact with a sharp weapon, ie shoken, hiraken, etc.
Tension is required in the belly for protection and locking of the hips in place, so, as with the shoulder, efficient transfer of power takes place. Tension is required in the legs for a stable base and power source. Bearing down (Valsalva) with excessive forced breathing doesn't enhance any of these goals and raises your blood pressure excessively, turns you purple, and speeds the deevelopment of hemmorhoids. Excessive tension in the legs impairs your mobility.
So the trick is selective tension or fluidity, mobility and speed despite power--I think of this as one of the three conflicts. The Goju/Isshin sanchins have power at the expense of the other attributes. And I prefer selective tension to indiscriminate tension because it makes you more efficiently use your lower body strength--transfering it to the hands.
Being a solid muscular rock makes for impressive sanchin demonstrations, of course, but this kind of strength can't be used in a fight (not to the extent it's used in a kata) because it makes you rather immobile and stiff. You might do well soaking up punishment, but that's about all you can do if you do a isshin style sanchin during combat (I knew someone who did isshin and complained constantly about a 3 minute dynamic-breathing kata duration rule she faced.) This is not to say it isn't acceptable exercise, of course.
So maybe the caution about tension relates to an unhealthy valsalva... maybe it relates to excessive tension getting you beat up.
[PS Bill has a fuller discussion of breathing mechanics in the articles section.]
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited May 18, 2000).]
