Time on Target works, but what about physics?

[Panther]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:

You spoke like an engineer, Panther. Very often engineers use analogues to describe a situation. I could very well have used an electrical circuit to model the whole thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops... guilty as charged! Electrical circuit? No problem... That's my field! (pun intended)

[Bill Glasheen]

One can change the model slightly to help understand more principles here. Right now we have the Ferrari hitting a car with a passenger inside and a crumple zone in the front side of this passenger's car. But we normally don't think of the crumple zone as capable of rebounding to take another hit. Yes, there are some 5-mph bumpers that rebound.... Big deal!

Instead, now think of the force coming in as hitting a kind of shock absorber system between the incoming Ferrari, and the passenger in the car. A shock absorber system on a car (what is inbetween the tires and the frame) has a spring and a damper (think of RLC circuits, Panther). For reasonable bumps, we don't hurt the driver inside, or even make him that uncomfortable. What does it take to hurt the passenger inside? Actually two things: the speed at which the bump happens, and the degree to which it penetrates. Speed is speed - we all understand that. Some of us have a lot, most have less than a lot. Well what else do we have? Well, the subsequent downshift and acceleration of the car just before impact can make the shock absorber system "bottom out." We all have some capacity to take a hit over our solar plexus. This depends on the thickness and tone of the muscle, and the amount of fat. But all that has its limits. We can send a shock wave through with high speed, or we can "bottom out" the shock absorption layer with a penetrating, accelerating blow - the "time on contact."

Note here that I'm now talking about a solar plexus underneath, rather than a bone or an organ like a kidney. LFKOs (light force knockouts) are all about hitting sensors (nerve plexi, big nerves, pressure sensors, etc) that can actually amplify the incoming "signal". Some people are very sensitive when hit on these sensors - particularly the wiry, skinny folk. Some are less sensitive due to physical makeup (muscle, fat, etc) and sensitivity of the sensor in mind. But in all cases, we need to overwhelm the natural shock absorption system that protects these sensors from routine external forces.

We can even get more complex and talk about how multiple strikes work. That's a lot like putting too many hair dryers in the same circuit, and blowing the circuit breaker. We use neural pathways in the body for other than their intended purpose - maintaining life.

Etc, etc.

- Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 17, 2000).]

[SEAN C]

Tony,

The whipping action of my head as I turned to gape at such a beautiful sight would probably cause an imbalance of chi in my kneck. OW!

------------------
sean

[Bill Glasheen]

I have been so busy that I haven't had a chance to get into this discussion. No matter... It's interesting reading it today (Tuesday) and seeing how far it has evolved.

I believe I can help you, Rick. And I will try to stay away from physics equations as much as possible so that everyone will understand the concepts.

Panther definitely has a lot of the right ideas. I differ with him on the tightness of the fist issue vs. mass, etc. But he's on the right track.

The very first thing to state, Rick, is that you walked into the problem with an oversimplification of the physics involved. Your model didn't even begin to describe what is going on.

I'm going to stick with Panther's car model. It's an excellent approach.

Think of a sanchin strike like the Ferrari at the starting blocks. The target is another car - parked for now - at the quarter mile point. There is a person inside that car, and we want to hurt him. That would be like the body organ or the rib or the nerve plexus that we want to do damage to or "excite".

So, as in the case of the sanchin strike (or even a person in a natural position starting to punch), the first goal is to step on the gas and start running up the gears. We want as much velocity as possible. Velocity is very important for doing damage to that fellow inside the other car.

Now most of you were thinking (as Panther pointed out) of an extremely simple and unrealistic situation. In other words, you were thinking that the person would increase the speed until just before contact, and then suddenly we are changing to an unrealistically simple situation of a cue ball hitting the eight ball. That would mean that the driver switches the car into neutral, and relies STRICTLY on the kinetic energy of the vehicle as the source of damage. Fair enough...for now. The available kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2. Thus it's proportional to the mass, and proportional to the SQUARE of the velocity. Obviously in this grossly oversimplified situation, mass is important but velocity is MUCH more important.

Now in this grossly oversimplified situation, 1/2mv^2 is the MAXIMUM amount of energy that we could impart to that other vehicle. Sorry...cars don't have chi. People don't either, but I'll never convince some of you of that. I can, however, show you that I can explain most everything I see. This is no exception. Now Rick thought that the time on contact situation was like this oversimplified guy switching the car into neutral, and suddenly having this aircraft carrier jet bungee chord pulling on the back of the vehicle shortly after the contact. Van and others were pointing out that you want to have the bungee chord (basically someone's flexor muscles, etc) of proper length so that it doesn't kick in until the Ferrari has penetrated the other vehicle a bit.


In this oversimplified model, there are considerations as to the ability to hurt the guy in the other car. How can we hurt him less? One way is to have special crumple zones in the recipient car. This is like making your stomach pliable so that the abdominal wall can absorb a lot of the energy. The more energy the "crumple zone" absorbs, the less the guy is going to ultimately feel inside the car. When is the guy inside the car going to be hurt, and when will he not be hurt? Well there are basically chemical bonds that tie all our pieces and parts together, just as there are chemical bonds in the crumple zone. As the contact is made (which does happen over a very tiny but measurable period of time), the energy that is being transferred is going to be absorbed several ways. It could be absorbed by moving the car (which means you transfer kinetic energy to the car). That would be a very good thing for the guy inside the car! But as that other vehicle is starting to accelerate (and this person inside the vehicle too), you may be generating forces within this vehicle that will overcome the energy threshold of the chemical bonds in the crumple zone. This is like a temporary potential energy. If those bonds break before the guy starts to experience similar destruction, then this potential energy is released in the crumple zone and not in the guy. If the guys bonds are more fragile than the crumple zone (and indeed some of them probably are) then he - and not the car - will start to absorb some of that potential energy.

Speed is important here, because the faster the speed, the more you create this kind of elastic or potential energy within the crumple zone plus person that may overcome all the chemical bonds before the vehicle as a whole can receive that energy as its own kinetic energy.

In the end, it's good for the guy if the energy is absorbed in crumple zone or in transferred kinetic energy. This is like the recipient of a punch weaving back (kinetic energy) or absorbing the energy in the elasticity of soft tissue like a strong abdominal wall with a little fat over it (crumple zone).

The Ferrari itself also has to be considered as capable of absorbing the energy of the contact. It also may crumple. This would be like having a soft fist. If we make the fist hard when we contact, this is like having a very rigid-body vehicle that doesn't crumple at all. And we are more likely to "penetrate" and hurt that guy inside if we concentrate the contact point so that maybe we can overcome lots of chemical bonds in the front of that car (before it moves) and maybe drive the steering wheel through the guys chest. Lovely! This is like hitting with a shoken or two knuckles rather than the flat of your hand.

Now...what the heck is "time on contact"? Actually it's a bit of a misnomer.

Have any of you folks heard George or others talk about "accelerating" a strike or a block? This gets to the issue. What happens when someone does "time on contact"? It isn't like what people think it is or the languages says; it's more like what George preaches in sanchin and Panther talks about with the car model.

Consider now that our driver is approaching the target at the quarter mile point, and is about to hit the standing vehicle. Well we want to HURT the guy in that car, right? How can we do it more, now that we are reaching the quarter-mile speed that is published in all the car magazines? Well we can actually add to that kinetic energy (1/2mv^2) by dropping down two gears in the transmission (from 5th to 2nd or 3rd) and then popping the engine into gear with a stomp of the accelerator just as we contact the other vehicle. Thus now we can transfer energy by both our kinetic energy as well as the rated torque of the engine at whatever RPM the engine revs just as we hit. BOOOM!!! This is the acceleration, time on contact, whatever that George and Van and Jimmy Malone mean. It isn't time to transfer the energy per se. It is adding an active component to the collision.

So what is happening in the person when we do this in a punch on the heavy bag? Well we first generate speed in the extension to give us kinetic energy. Then when we go from this no-load extension to the high-load contact on the bag, we contract every available muscle HARD to add to that KE. The race car driver has to drop gears when going up a hill - an example of a higher load than when on the straightaway. We just throw our leg/gluteus/abdominal contraction into the extending arm, and make sure everything is aligned so it all goes in the target. Any "whipping" action is basically taking advantage of passive elasticity in our entire body to create potential energy that we can add to this contact point. There are a few other interesting features to add, such as the stretch reflex we trigger at various points in our body when we elastically stretch all those muscles. That's just more nerve impulses to contract more powerfully (revving of the engine in low gear) when the fist hits the target.

Thus Jimmy Malone's time on contact means additional contraction of many muscles before we go into the retraction part of the strike. We continue to contract muscles (fire the nerves that trigger those muscles) for the length of time that we contact. It is the acceleration that George and Van speak of at the end of a strike or block.

Hope this helps.

- Bill

[LenTesta]

This thread is getting so complicated that most of us are now dreaming about demolishing our cars instead of karate training. Why explain the concept of mass, velocity, acceleration etc.

This is a very simple maneuver, (as Van has stated) made so complex by this thread. I am now beginning to consider studying quantum mechanics instead of Uechi-ryu.

For all you non-engineers out there, the process is very simple.

1. Practice your kicks and punches to the full extent of your body’s limits without overextended any parts that should remain stable.

2. Hold the kick or punch at the extension for a split second so the movement will be complete.

3. Know the distance at which your kick or punch will cover.

4. Make sure your opponent’s body is within this distance and complete the technique (number 2)


------------------
Len Testa

[Bill Glasheen]

Lenny

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Why explain the concept of mass, velocity, acceleration etc.

That's easy. Rick Wilson started this thread and he clearly asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

what about physics?

This thread was never meant to investigate who could do "a very simple maneuver." (Tell that to a beginner...) It was intended to investigate why that maneuver works.

Very often folks like me trained in biophysics and biomedical engineering will study with a martial arts genius and walk away realizing that a very competent athlete has no ideal why his genius works. You do not need to be a physics major to be a karate champion or a major league baseball player, or slam-dunk a basketball after jumping over a 7 foot Frenchman. Don't believe me? Check out all the NCAA champion teams out there with players who can't graduate even with watered-down course loads.

But there are legions of others that want to know how these things work because they are on their own martial journeys. Occasionally you can get there by taking the Nike approach - just do it. But there are times when the teachers are the geniuses, and the geniuses cannot communicate that genius. This is when you start to get into crazy arguments about powers that don't exist or explanations that make no sense in the real world. The end result is that good teachers and good leaders don't necessarily get the best out of everyone around them - gifted or not.

Physics is not for the feint of heart. Those that "speak the language" have an aptitude and (like the karate champions) have worked very hard at it for a long time. No, it is not necessary for everyone to speak the language. But when you have this large group of people who want to know, and you have these difficult concepts that must be dealt with, it's useful to have a few translators around so that they can serve as liaisons between what people think and what really is.

Truth be told, Len, I would have been left in the dark with your explanation. Go figure. It's not that it was wrong, it's just that it didn't go anywhere near far enough for me.

I've heard it said again and again that karate is like an onion. You peel a few layers and get to see what is inside. Then you look at one of those layers and realize you can peel it into more layers. These layers then have more levels of complexity. Etc, etc, etc. This is why Tomoyose sensei implored people to take the narrow but deep path. This genius of martial arts knew how complex it all was. Folks like Jim Thompson - who studied with Uechi Kanei for a decade - will give you a different answer depending on what he thinks you know. He wants to help you but...he doesn't want to lose you. He wants to give you an answer that he thinks will help you get to the next layer of understanding.

Based on previous conversations with you online, I know to respect your physical understanding of athletic principles, and your ability to execute many of them. But I know you know that it goes deeper, and deeper, and deeper.

Why go this deep? Well...we have these folks who speak about chi and other magical forces that they say modern science doesn't understand. Mostly folks like me just remain quiet. Occasionally we blurt out a little to let folks know that it's not magic, but it's not simple either. It's understood, but it's very difficult to understand. Should we leave the chi-sters and their concepts alone? What harm will they do? They do a lot of harm (not to pick on any one group...sorry) if they lead people down stray paths trying to chase some ghost that never was and never will be. Explanations that are flawed can make people waste a lot of time.

And believe me - I didn't even begin to geek out on you guys. I've got books on biomechanics on my shelf (like one by Y.C. Fung) that are way beyond me right now.

Not everyone wants to dig this deep. Not everyone likes to work with this Grand Poobah or that Master of Doom or the other Champion of Champions. Everyone has their preferred "plug in spot." But knowing that these concepts are real and explainable is comforting. Knowing that you have some place to go to ask questions and dig in a little deeper is useful. And then we all go back to the heavy bag and see if it works any better for us. And then the cycle continues...

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 18, 2000).]

[Panther]

Testa-sempai,

Glasheen-sempai makes a good case for why we analyze these things from a complex scientific perspective... I've always maintained that sitting here in a comfortable office at this keyboard, is the opportunity to do this analysis. Trying to think about these things when you are being attacked is not only unrealistic, but stupid. (IMNSHO) Soooo, for those of us that are interested in a scientific way, now is the time and here is the place where these thoughts and questions can be asked, answered and discussed. That's all... If it doesn't work for someone, I would say they should move on... don't worry about it... If you find something you can use, use it. If you don't see anyting of use, forget it.

[Panther]

Canna-sempai,

What model is that Yamaha?

You guys are all into the "sport" bikes...

I perfer the cruiser. A Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 Classic. Still does 110 with me and the wifey on board. It's also a shaft-drive. The Wife has a Virago 750 (Yamaha) which is shaft-drive for when she wants to ride "separate".

[LenTesta]

Bill:

I did not mean to detract from the analogical discussions on the topic of this thread. Technically speaking...Yes I like to break down movements and dig deeper for the mechanics of the movements. While teaching someone to perform any movement (pitching, hitting, shooting a hockey puck or basketball, karate etc.) with their body, a good mechanical description of the movement can help some people. But as you stated with some college athletes. Do as I do not as I say works for them! Show me how and I will repeat. Tell me how and I am confused.
So to be fair to all I posted my previous message.


To get technical again...

I feel that this "time on target" concept is over analyzed this time. The reason for telling students to have a "time on target" attitude is to eliminate the student from withdrawing the movement before it reaches its maximum efficient distance. No one will throw a punch or kick as performed in a first speed kata (we hope). When a punch or kick is delivered it should be at maximum thrust and extension as practiced by the breaking down of the mechanical aspects of the movemnt. If the body part is allowed to finish the movement, the impact will be greater if the object struck is within the distance of the limb's travel. Van could not have stated any clearer than he has already explained it above. When hitting a person in the midsection, the limb should travel through the midsection and complete it's jopurney at the spine. This is directly related to the distance the object of the punch or kick is in relation to the distance of the limb's movement. Therefore "time on target" is all relative if the distance is short enough that the limb can travel to the full extent, and the person executing the move is programmed to carry out the movement to the full extent.

The problem with karate beginners when they learn to punch is turning the wrist over too soon, then pulling it away before it has a chance to continue its travel to the full extension. I make my students step up to the swinging bag and get slightly to the side of it and extend their arm until their fist is on the opposite side of the bag. Then I tell them to slide over in front of the bag and perform the punch as taught in the kata. Which should be...Sliding the arm forward rubbing against the body, keeping the elbow behind the fist, then turn the fist over just before the maximum extension is reached. The student usually makes contact with the swinging bag as the elbow clears the body. Most beginners turn the wrist on contact and pull away shortly after contact is made. This is very bad as they did not complete the extension of the arm to the maximum. When the student learns that the wrist is still in its starting position while on impact and the arm is allowed to continue through the bag and turn at the end of the thrust is also when they grasp the "time on target" concept. The actual distance between the puncher and the swinging bag is what makes time on target work if the technique can travel to the full extent. You must know what the distance that your kick or punch will reach, and make sure your target is inside that distance.


BTW...Speaking about mid-life crises. I have been driving a maroon 1990 Firebird with spoiler package and t-tops for a year now.

It's no were near the 1969 Road Runner I gave up when I got married. But I don't drive fast anymore. I just want to look good

------------------
Len Testa

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited October 18, 2000).]

[Bill Glasheen]

Lenny

All good points. All well taken. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

but what about physics?

We need to honor the intent of the author of the thread - not be dismissive of the intellectual exercise. I like your teaching methods. I also need to be able to explain why things work when people ask me, or they'll be assuming things that aren't correct (based on false paradigms) and seeking to maximize things that are irrelevant.

This is really a two-part issue. The physics of what is going on between the chambered fist and bag contact is different from the physics of what happens between contact and proper extension with proper additional energy exchange. One is a no-load situation (fist travelling through air). One is a hi-load situation (fist delivering additional energy as it penetrates the target). You correctly describe what is going on from an external viewpoint. But the way you maximize energy exchange is different in the two different phases. The first phase is all about speed. The second phase is all about raw power. What goes on in your body is very different in the two phases. Engineers call this an impedence matching exercise. That's why you have transmissions in cars. That's why you have transformers in electric circuits. That's why you use your body differently during the "time on contact" phase.

In the end, you feel it and then you get it. I've seen many people hit the bag. I saw my first instructor (the late Rad Smith) do things to heavy bags that were pretty scary. I could not reproduce it - at first. Now I understand the feel. And later on, I understood the physics. And now I - the probing scientist - can go to sleep at night.

And if you ever want to know...

Good talking with you, Len.

- Bill

[Allen M.]

Neat bike, Tony. If I could only shift I'd have another bike in a heartbeat. I tried Bula's Gold Wing last year, but there's nothing in my feet.
---------------------------------
I'd rather think time IN target rather than time on target for a more in-depth strike, Lenny.

[Van Canna]

Mine was a Yamaha 750 special. Good bike.

The Virago is a fine bike, panther…your wife must love it.

The Vmax is some bike. I would buy one tomorrow if I were still into bikes.

However the Guzzi is a bike I would buy just to look at!


------------------
Van Canna

[Allen M.]

Rule of thumb when I travelled the country was the largest bike that I could push up an 8' plank into the bed of my pickup truck alone when it came time to move on was the largest I would own. My last bike was a Yami 650. Beautiful, quick, low cg, more responsive, and cornered better than anything else I ever rode. I loved that bike and it became part of me. If I can find the picture of it and me tomorrow, I'll post it here.

[Van Canna]

Tony,

Guzzi _V11? Talk about the elegant beast! Italian women are drawn to it in mesmerized sensual stupor.

My friend from Venice, who just left my home, said the signorinas dream of being run over by one in search of the ultimate “ Big O”


Are you going to buy one? It puts my Yamaha shaft drive to shame.


------------------
Van Canna

[Bill Glasheen]

One of my old housemates was a MotoGuzzi owner. He never attracted any swooning Italian women with belladonna eyes, but he did OK. My history is with the British (BSA twin, believe it or not..) and Japanese (4-cylinder 750 Suzuki) machines.

These days I am suffering from a terminal case of Audi-on-the-brain. Over dinner on Saturday, I was chastizing Alois (of our German contingent) for allowing the Germans to keep the price of these gems artificially high in spite of the power of the American dollar. George thinks I should stop being so practical and just buy the damned thing. Bruce Hirabayashi thinks I'm suffering from a mid-life crisis.

Sigh....

- Bill