How fights start...

[MetaBaron]

Hello again!
Remember Grade/High school?
If you were like me, you had you share of scuffles, brought on by a gushing
chemical called testosterone, coupled by the urge to rebel and look cool.
Most of my fights started the same way.
1. Name calling or teasing
2. Then face to face, chest to chest
3. Then the famous "pushing" match
4. Followed by wildly thrown punches
5. Finally, the wrestle and head lock OR
sitting on top of the opponent.
A few times I got sucker punched from the side or behind. And once I was
"boxed".
In my youth kicking was sign of cowardly fighting, (but I did it anyway, emulating
my then hero, good Old' B.Lee.
Now I am grown, and have never had a fight that I could not walk away from or "KI" my way out of. (Note: I use the method of giving off more intensity than my opponent. I call this KI'ing the enemy)
So my topic is, beyond the classic pyramid of escalation, what has been your
experience with first attacks?
Is it a grab, punch? kick? head butt? push?
Poke? I suppose that how we react in the first split seconds of a fight determine if
we walk away safely or curl up in the fetal position and cry for mommy.
Thoughts?
-Meta


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If you overlook the Way right before your
eyes, how will you know the path beneath
your feet? Advancing has nothing to do with
near and far, yet delusion creates obstacles
high and wide. Students of the mystery, I
humbly urge you, don't waste a moment, night
or day!

- Shih-t'ou (700-790)

[Gabriel Suarez]

My experience has been that when human beings are put into a combative environment, they do one of four things. They percieve the threat and act on those perceptions (Fight), they puff up chest and bluster about how they will kick a** (Posture), Cower and submit to the aggressor (Submission), or simply Flee.

The latter two are irrelevant to the discussion, but the first two are important.
The Posture guys may be working themsleves up emotionally for the fight, but perhaps not. When guys fight from emotion, they are reckless and easily countered or avoided. This is simply becayuse you see them coming a mile away. Look at a couple of baboons screaming at each other and you get the idea.
The most efficient response, in my opinion, is to respond in a cool-predatory manner to threats. In our strange society, it is always better to avoid things, but when they cannot be avoided, respond with a predatory attitude, not that of an emotionally out of control baboon.

That said, most modern urban fights will begin by surprise. That is there will be little name calling and posing by the other side, but probably a sneak attack. Perhaps a weapon will be involved, etc. Most of our collective fighting experience as a society comes from our adolescent pursuits. The truth is that in few highschool fights is someone trying to kill the other party. They are more akin to bulls fighting for territory. Not so with adult males on the street.

Good Luck,


Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
Training in Weapons, Tactics, and Combatives
http://www.gabesuarez.com

[david]

Mr. Suarez,

Nice to see your name of these boards. Hope you can pop in once in awhile. I am sure your tactical knowledge, especially around firearms would be most welcome. Van Canna's Self-Defense Realities forum would love to hear from you.

david

[Gabriel Suarez]

Many thanks for the kind words.


Gabe Suarez

[Brat]

Most of the fights that I either wittnessed, or was involved in during my high school years involved wrestling as the main first shot. That could have been because wrestling was big on the athletic scene at my school. I have a friend that used to live in New York and he said that Boxing was in vouge there because his neighborhood was also home to several boxing gyms.
I don't succumb to the Gracie marketing slogan that say's "90% of all fights go to the ground," as my experience viewing "real" fights has shown otherwise. From what I've seen most highschool fights involve wrestling and most barfights end up in slugfests. I believe that wrestling is a preferred method in high school mostly because of the fragiglity of those involved.
Like it or not when punches get slung-people get hurt. I know that it's dangerous to overgenaralize, but I would have to say that a large majority of immature high school students are still a bit leary to pain. Oh sure, you can put the hurt on someone with an armbar, but the pain of a hold is a lot different than the pain of a fractured jaw, broken nose, or splintered ribs jabbing into your lungs.
I am a 2nd Dan in Judo and a Bronze glove in Savate, and am currently a Red Sash in Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu. Back in high school I was mostly into Savate and was not a popular person to try to pick a fight with as everyone knew I was a striker. I believe that with the soaring popularity of martial arts, that the tactics of high school fights are changing, but in my experience as of lately, most high school toughs are "big talk, little action." It's easy to watch a Stephen Segal or Jean Claude movie but not so easy to do those moves on your own without any training. Last year I was confronted by a group of Frat-guys at the college I attend while dining in the cafeteria. I have a facial twitch that is a result of my years as a golden gloves boxer that operates when pressure is put on my jaw(when I chew somethin.) These guys were all bigger than me and had their "women" sitting with them as one after one they began to make fun of my facial twitches. One of them finally got up the nerve to ask me "why do es your face do that...huh?" Without even looking at him I just said "Oh thats an old injury i got from boxing several years." His reponse was a feeble Y...You used to box?" "Sure," I replied, "you don't think I got all these scars on my face from popping zits do you?" Well, after that, those guys dispersed with their tales tucked without even finishing their food.

[student]

But well deserved, sir.

For those who know not of Mr. Suarez, Van has written a (very) short resume on his Forum with an open invitation for him to post.

(If you do, Gabe, I guarantee it will be - interesting. In every sense of the word. )

Let me just say, if you want to know unarmed combat, look to Mattson, Canna, Blauer,etc.

If you want to know the blade, look to Keating, Worden, Presas, Sayoc, Franks.

If you want to know firearms, start with Gabe Suarez.

(And no, I don't know him myself, nor am I going to get even so much as a cup of coffee for the endorsement. )

student

[gmattson]

Greetings Mr. Suarez:

We are indeed honored to have you visit our website. I've heard lots of great things about you and hope that you will become a regular on these pages.

Best,
George E. Mattson

[Bill Glasheen]

Very nice to have your participation, Mr. Suarez. Your comments were broad and informative.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

what has been your experience with first attacks? Is it a grab, punch? kick? head butt? push? Poke?

I think the answer depends on several things. First, what is the intent of the attacker? Second, what is the response of the target?

Most of the fights that Metabaron is talking about are not about intent to do harm. Instead, they are about jostling and posturing in the social pecking order. In animals, this can lead to mating rights and/or social status. In some ways humans aren't a lot different; I think instead we are just more deluded. A firm grasp of the concepts of Sociobiology (e.g. The selfish gene) explains a lot of this behavior.

I guess my point is that the first attack - in these situations - happens long before the first attack. It's the verbal insult, or maybe the subtle violation of the rules of social behavior/status. What happens next depends a lot on the response of the target. Much of that has already been discussed.

After preaching the wisdom of avoidance, Mr. Suarez states <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

The most efficient response, in my opinion, is to respond in a cool-predatory manner to threats.

I find the phrase cool-predatory fascinating. By cool, I presume it means emotions are kept in check. I sense the general concept can run deep, from the cognitive to the physiologic. I see much in choice of that word. Predatory implies a role reversal from intended victim to victimizer.

pred-a-to-ry adj. ... characterized by a tendency to victimize or destroy others for one's own gain. {Lat. praedator, pillager < praedari, to plunder < praeda, booty.}

What strikes me about the words and the general classification is the broad scope of responses that this could include (spoken/acted on or not) and the intended message this could send to the original attacker. This could include intimidation, redirection, humor, intellectual sparring, etc. I'd be very interested to hear if Gabe had further comments.

I agree about the general classification of the surprise attacker. It isn't the barking dog that one should fear; it's the one that quietly attacks when you are not looking.

- Bill

[Sochin]

After the initial greetings and exchange of pleasantries, Canadians start the go-round by fipping the guys hat off!

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The Fighting Old Man