Let me start off by saying a few things...
I've been in MA just over 2 years now,
I'm a green belt (Uechi-Ryu),
I've been learning primarily the bo for about a year now,
when I ask about weapons in this thread I'm not talking about "distance" weapons (guns, bow&arow, etc.),
I'm talking about weapons that are meant to stay in your hands.
I'm wondering what people are studying and why and where they want to go with it and what they want to do next.
For me...
What: I'm studying the Bo, the Oar, and gi-wah (sp?).
Why: Because my friends and teachers are.
Where...: I want to become profiecent enough to be able to defend myself and my family from ???
Next: I'm seriously considering the Cane. From what I can tell it's almost impossible or impractical to carry around most other weapons, but a can has access to every place I can think of....ever try taking Sai into an airport, or on a passenger plane?...what good is a weapon if you can't have it when you need it?
------------------
Rick Liebespach
Green Belt (Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Joe Guidry Sensei
Weapons
Moderator: Available
-
RickLiebespach
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
Weapons
Rick,
What I like about training with longer, heavier weapons is that it teaches you to engage with your whole body -- the hips and the center -- rather than with just the arms. This is a good complement to your karate training.
But as you pointed out, there is limited opportunity if you're are talking about practical considerations, short of someone attacking you right after you step off your rowing boat.
The cane is a good one as no one ever really questions one having that. (Although I ran across a couple of "combat canes" on the street and knew RIGHT OFF what they were for. Definitely possible that others out there will ascertain the purpose of the cane.) In fact, I like to take the cane with me when I am out late for work stuff and I am taking public transportation...
Different MA's have the cane but I personally prefer to learn the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) oriented styles. The cane fits right in with most of the lengths of sticks most practice with in FMA. I like FMA approach because there's emphasis on good mobile footwork and, in some styles, more ambidexterity. Though not readily apparent sometimes, the stickwork is an extension of empty hands. A lot of the drills can just easily be done with empty hands as with the sticks. Of course, the sticks are faster and it prompts the development of quicker reflexes. Part of the training is also learning disarms. This brings you into the realm of locks and throws as well.
Studying FMA will also lead you to bladework, anywhere from folding size knives to swords. Most folks can't carry swords but can legally carry a small folder. Whether one chooses to because of personal and mindset considerations is another matter. Nevertheless, one can find cross over application of some small knife techniques onto other less lethal tools, such as mini-mag light, cross pen, ruler, etc.
Again, whether one chooses to carry a weapon is one thing. But even if the choice is to not carry, learning the weapons exposes one to the possible attacks with these and how to better defend against them. This is what got me interested in the first place.
For you, there may be a specific concern whether it's too early to be branching out to other studies before you have a good grasp of a core area. Sometimes this creates conflicts. But you and your instructor will be better judges of this than anyone else.
david
What I like about training with longer, heavier weapons is that it teaches you to engage with your whole body -- the hips and the center -- rather than with just the arms. This is a good complement to your karate training.
But as you pointed out, there is limited opportunity if you're are talking about practical considerations, short of someone attacking you right after you step off your rowing boat.
The cane is a good one as no one ever really questions one having that. (Although I ran across a couple of "combat canes" on the street and knew RIGHT OFF what they were for. Definitely possible that others out there will ascertain the purpose of the cane.) In fact, I like to take the cane with me when I am out late for work stuff and I am taking public transportation...
Different MA's have the cane but I personally prefer to learn the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) oriented styles. The cane fits right in with most of the lengths of sticks most practice with in FMA. I like FMA approach because there's emphasis on good mobile footwork and, in some styles, more ambidexterity. Though not readily apparent sometimes, the stickwork is an extension of empty hands. A lot of the drills can just easily be done with empty hands as with the sticks. Of course, the sticks are faster and it prompts the development of quicker reflexes. Part of the training is also learning disarms. This brings you into the realm of locks and throws as well.
Studying FMA will also lead you to bladework, anywhere from folding size knives to swords. Most folks can't carry swords but can legally carry a small folder. Whether one chooses to because of personal and mindset considerations is another matter. Nevertheless, one can find cross over application of some small knife techniques onto other less lethal tools, such as mini-mag light, cross pen, ruler, etc.
Again, whether one chooses to carry a weapon is one thing. But even if the choice is to not carry, learning the weapons exposes one to the possible attacks with these and how to better defend against them. This is what got me interested in the first place.
For you, there may be a specific concern whether it's too early to be branching out to other studies before you have a good grasp of a core area. Sometimes this creates conflicts. But you and your instructor will be better judges of this than anyone else.
david
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Allen M.
Weapons
For weapons training I like FMA best, Rich, for at least the same reasons david does. Additionally, to me, FMA footwork teaches how to synchronize the whole body into the movement, and "flow" is a very important FMA word. Also with stickwork, one uses the same movement and techniques for everything from knife to machette; only the distance varies.
I like to tape a silver strip on the business end of the stick. This trains the eye. The speed of the tip of the stick is much faster than the speed of the hand and of the arm, therefore when your eyes get used to following the silver strip, they see a punch or leg coming much easier, in relative slow motion. FMA teaches rhythm and one to synchronize with an opponent. Even if you don't carry a weapon, FMA skills can help you defend against a bladed weapon because you have trained your reflexes to do so.
Next I like the bo. When I trained in the bo, I taped three bos together to get the weight up to challenge my arms, balance, and develop little miscles in in the lower spine intil I had a heavy, humungously thick octagonal white-oak bo custom made for me by a specialty lumber shop when the three bos got too light to twirl around.
Thirdly, I like the sai. Do kata regularly with the sai and your [empty] hand/arm movements become lightning fast after awhile. The sai also goes a long way to developing both fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles in the shoulders, upper chest and upper back as well as in the lower back to some extent.
Those are my three favorites and the reasons behind why they are my favorites.
As an after-thought addendum, I sometimes bring a cane with me. Not a fighting cane, rather a third leg to help me in snow and ice and to manoever where there are a lot of people. Although I never think of it as a weapon, I have confidence that I could use it to stop an attack on my person, if need be, from skills learned from martial arts weapons. Sooner or later the training of multiple weapons all comes together into one coherent ability.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
I like to tape a silver strip on the business end of the stick. This trains the eye. The speed of the tip of the stick is much faster than the speed of the hand and of the arm, therefore when your eyes get used to following the silver strip, they see a punch or leg coming much easier, in relative slow motion. FMA teaches rhythm and one to synchronize with an opponent. Even if you don't carry a weapon, FMA skills can help you defend against a bladed weapon because you have trained your reflexes to do so.
Next I like the bo. When I trained in the bo, I taped three bos together to get the weight up to challenge my arms, balance, and develop little miscles in in the lower spine intil I had a heavy, humungously thick octagonal white-oak bo custom made for me by a specialty lumber shop when the three bos got too light to twirl around.
Thirdly, I like the sai. Do kata regularly with the sai and your [empty] hand/arm movements become lightning fast after awhile. The sai also goes a long way to developing both fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles in the shoulders, upper chest and upper back as well as in the lower back to some extent.
Those are my three favorites and the reasons behind why they are my favorites.
As an after-thought addendum, I sometimes bring a cane with me. Not a fighting cane, rather a third leg to help me in snow and ice and to manoever where there are a lot of people. Although I never think of it as a weapon, I have confidence that I could use it to stop an attack on my person, if need be, from skills learned from martial arts weapons. Sooner or later the training of multiple weapons all comes together into one coherent ability.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Weapons
I'm probably the heretic here, but I highly recommend fencing. It is based far more stringently on dueling than most people realized. It is possibly the most highly evolved form of hand-to-hand weapon fighting (at least 600 years of continuous developement and experimentation, much of it analyzed by a literate society) and has been very effective (Musashi's victory record would not have been worth noticing in Renaissance France, Italy or Spain).
I have been introduced to very advanced concepts in Asian martial arts that were identical to concepts from introductory fencing. Everything else aside, the mental and strategic aspects of fencing will help any fighter of any style.
Rory
I have been introduced to very advanced concepts in Asian martial arts that were identical to concepts from introductory fencing. Everything else aside, the mental and strategic aspects of fencing will help any fighter of any style.
Rory
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Weapons
Rick
Sometimes when you are learning some anachronistic martial art, the utility isn't always apparent. This can be particularly true when studying the bo, sai, and tonfa.
I can tell you though that after only a little bit of training in those three weapons, that I have developed skills that are difficult to teach any other way. If you ever get into the grappling arts like aikido or judo, you will soon learn that the dexterity you develop with traditional kobudo generalizes quite well when it comes to intercepting and manipulating your opponent's body and body parts. As a matter of fact, it is said that Uechiba developed aikido largely from movements with the sword. That is especially apparent in techniques like shihonage.
When I used to teach extremely large karate classes and had access to a large mat, I would often spend an hour a week teaching aikido. I would show people a move, have them try it, and then pick out a few people who were struggling. I would then show them how applying certain principles of sanchin would make the movement easier. In doing this exercise, I often found people really struggling with the interception and manipulation of their opponent's arms, wrists, and hands. I soon discovered that what was "natural" to me was only so because of my training with the bo. It became necessary for me to show detailed transitions of grip in agonizing detail to some students.
David and others have talked about the advantages of training with sai. Both sai and tonfa teach you a certain skill that is universal with many weapons. There are two "major" modes of grip with these weapons. One is extended, and the other is retracted with the weapon body covering the forearm. You will find that MANY weapons can be used this way. If you study both sai and tonfa, you get used to that transitioning between the two modes, and the use of the retracted mode as "defense with an attitude." When Raffi started teaching me Filipino knife and stick, I found myself naturally doing the very same thing. As it turns out, the retracted mode IS used and taught - just not practiced by many. Heaven help the person who swings at me and hits my forearm with a knife blade resting in parallel. I spend a lot of time practicing cuts and "defenses" with this reverse grip. When you begin to see underlying principles that apply to all the weapons, then new weapons are much easier to learn. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember last year at camp that in the little Filipino stick tournament Raffi ran, one fellow that did extremely well was using fencing principles and stances.
So...what is "practical"? Well many weapons that seem so may be a bit of a problem. I do like the nice folded blades that are less than three inches long. They don't LOOK mean and they can be quite the utilitarian tool. To heck with Crocodile Dundee - I can do a LOT of damage with a three-inch blade, and get away with carrying it. Most other weapons are way too obvious to be practical. But you want to know something I often carry in my car that is easy to justify and nobody thinks twice about? My son's aluminum bat. I often have it in there because we go to the batting cage now and then. If I am stopped, a policeman won't think twice about it. But heaven help the fellow who thinks he's going to assault me when I'm in or near my vehicle. "He came after me and I feared for my life, your honor. I just happened to have my son's bat in the car from the last time I took him to the batting cage..." Now...nobody needs to teach me how to use a bat after playing competitively for several decades. But even more, I know where and how to hit my opponent from years of doing bo work. They never taught me that on the ball field!
If you have studied enough different weapons for long enough, you begin to see the pattern. You will find yourself twirling ordinary garden implements, thrusting with your umbrella, etc. When the $hit hits the fan, you will look around you and find something that will give you an "edge"
. In fact I have half a dozen different things in my desk drawer right now that would do a LOT of damage. And guess what? That, my friend, is exactly what the Okinawan farmers did. By then, you have captured the essence of their art and made it your own.
- Bill
Sometimes when you are learning some anachronistic martial art, the utility isn't always apparent. This can be particularly true when studying the bo, sai, and tonfa.
I can tell you though that after only a little bit of training in those three weapons, that I have developed skills that are difficult to teach any other way. If you ever get into the grappling arts like aikido or judo, you will soon learn that the dexterity you develop with traditional kobudo generalizes quite well when it comes to intercepting and manipulating your opponent's body and body parts. As a matter of fact, it is said that Uechiba developed aikido largely from movements with the sword. That is especially apparent in techniques like shihonage.
When I used to teach extremely large karate classes and had access to a large mat, I would often spend an hour a week teaching aikido. I would show people a move, have them try it, and then pick out a few people who were struggling. I would then show them how applying certain principles of sanchin would make the movement easier. In doing this exercise, I often found people really struggling with the interception and manipulation of their opponent's arms, wrists, and hands. I soon discovered that what was "natural" to me was only so because of my training with the bo. It became necessary for me to show detailed transitions of grip in agonizing detail to some students.
David and others have talked about the advantages of training with sai. Both sai and tonfa teach you a certain skill that is universal with many weapons. There are two "major" modes of grip with these weapons. One is extended, and the other is retracted with the weapon body covering the forearm. You will find that MANY weapons can be used this way. If you study both sai and tonfa, you get used to that transitioning between the two modes, and the use of the retracted mode as "defense with an attitude." When Raffi started teaching me Filipino knife and stick, I found myself naturally doing the very same thing. As it turns out, the retracted mode IS used and taught - just not practiced by many. Heaven help the person who swings at me and hits my forearm with a knife blade resting in parallel. I spend a lot of time practicing cuts and "defenses" with this reverse grip. When you begin to see underlying principles that apply to all the weapons, then new weapons are much easier to learn. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember last year at camp that in the little Filipino stick tournament Raffi ran, one fellow that did extremely well was using fencing principles and stances.
So...what is "practical"? Well many weapons that seem so may be a bit of a problem. I do like the nice folded blades that are less than three inches long. They don't LOOK mean and they can be quite the utilitarian tool. To heck with Crocodile Dundee - I can do a LOT of damage with a three-inch blade, and get away with carrying it. Most other weapons are way too obvious to be practical. But you want to know something I often carry in my car that is easy to justify and nobody thinks twice about? My son's aluminum bat. I often have it in there because we go to the batting cage now and then. If I am stopped, a policeman won't think twice about it. But heaven help the fellow who thinks he's going to assault me when I'm in or near my vehicle. "He came after me and I feared for my life, your honor. I just happened to have my son's bat in the car from the last time I took him to the batting cage..." Now...nobody needs to teach me how to use a bat after playing competitively for several decades. But even more, I know where and how to hit my opponent from years of doing bo work. They never taught me that on the ball field!
If you have studied enough different weapons for long enough, you begin to see the pattern. You will find yourself twirling ordinary garden implements, thrusting with your umbrella, etc. When the $hit hits the fan, you will look around you and find something that will give you an "edge"
. In fact I have half a dozen different things in my desk drawer right now that would do a LOT of damage. And guess what? That, my friend, is exactly what the Okinawan farmers did. By then, you have captured the essence of their art and made it your own.- Bill
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RickLiebespach
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
Weapons
I love it when you guys get on a roll! I learn so much! My Bo work is typically Sonday morning, before church, and this week I'm really looking forward to it! I hope to learn more tomorrow that I usually do, because I've so much more awareness now!
I wonder if there's a FMA any where in the Tampa area?
Allen, sounds like you like a Bo similar to what I recently heard (from Sensei G. Seizan Breyette) that Kanban used and liked....
<Address>A short thick staff about 150cm long and 7 or 8cm diameter (I think that's about 5 foot by 3 inches - Rick), became his favored weapon, and tool for strengthening the wrists. Made of very heavy wood (I won't know the wood until I get a look at it), it was difficult for most men to handle well if at all, except as a gross clubbing weapon. But Kanbun Sensei had unbelievably strong wrists and hands, and could whirl it around and beneath him as easily as a matchstick</Address>
Bill, how's this for practical...in my desk I have a pair of computer pocket screw drivers...you know the kind...standard blade at one end, philips at the other, with a pocket clip like most pens. Their the hi-tech/geek version of the gi-wah
I suspect I could take those on a plane too.
------------------
Rick Liebespach
Green Belt (Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Joe Guidry Sensei
[This message has been edited by RickLiebespach (edited March 10, 2001).]
I wonder if there's a FMA any where in the Tampa area?
Allen, sounds like you like a Bo similar to what I recently heard (from Sensei G. Seizan Breyette) that Kanban used and liked....
<Address>A short thick staff about 150cm long and 7 or 8cm diameter (I think that's about 5 foot by 3 inches - Rick), became his favored weapon, and tool for strengthening the wrists. Made of very heavy wood (I won't know the wood until I get a look at it), it was difficult for most men to handle well if at all, except as a gross clubbing weapon. But Kanbun Sensei had unbelievably strong wrists and hands, and could whirl it around and beneath him as easily as a matchstick</Address>
Bill, how's this for practical...in my desk I have a pair of computer pocket screw drivers...you know the kind...standard blade at one end, philips at the other, with a pocket clip like most pens. Their the hi-tech/geek version of the gi-wah
I suspect I could take those on a plane too.
------------------
Rick Liebespach
Green Belt (Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Joe Guidry Sensei
[This message has been edited by RickLiebespach (edited March 10, 2001).]
-
RickLiebespach
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
Weapons
I'm not sure if this deserves a thread of it's own, since it's technique oriented vs. conceptual and soul oriented (as my original posting was).
Several of you mentioned experience with the Bo...I was just reflecting upon the possibilty of there being a weapons section to some tournements (although I've never seen one), and thought back to my own non-trained experiences...kids playing with sticks kinda stuff.
It's not uncommon for kids (me included) to smash each others fingers and knuckles and hands, while goofing around with "Bo kinda stuff/play"...So comes the question....
When in "real" use, or a tournement setting, or ????, how do you keep from smashing your fingers etc?
My thought is that it's the sliding of two instuments against each other that causes most of the smashings. If I'm correct, then it would seem that proper technique would involve not just blocking, but blocking violently. In other words, when you block you also smack/bounce the other guy's weapon away so it can't slide along your own...and therefore it has much less chance of smashing your fingers etc.
Is this a correct insight? Am I on the right track?
------------------
Rick Liebespach
Green Belt (Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Joe Guidry Sensei
Several of you mentioned experience with the Bo...I was just reflecting upon the possibilty of there being a weapons section to some tournements (although I've never seen one), and thought back to my own non-trained experiences...kids playing with sticks kinda stuff.
It's not uncommon for kids (me included) to smash each others fingers and knuckles and hands, while goofing around with "Bo kinda stuff/play"...So comes the question....
When in "real" use, or a tournement setting, or ????, how do you keep from smashing your fingers etc?
My thought is that it's the sliding of two instuments against each other that causes most of the smashings. If I'm correct, then it would seem that proper technique would involve not just blocking, but blocking violently. In other words, when you block you also smack/bounce the other guy's weapon away so it can't slide along your own...and therefore it has much less chance of smashing your fingers etc.
Is this a correct insight? Am I on the right track?
------------------
Rick Liebespach
Green Belt (Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Joe Guidry Sensei
-
Scaramouche
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: LA, CA, USA
Weapons
RickLiebespach,
here is a list of teachers of the Filipino martial arts in Florida. If none are located in Tampa, you might contact the onbes on this list and ask them if they know of any that are...
http://www.pekiti-tirsia.org:8080/msql/FMA/Instructors/search_result.msql
"how do you keep from smashing your fingers etc?"
In my Filipino martial arts training, shots to the fingers (and sometimes other places) have been pretty common. Usually they don't hurt much, but it happens. I know people who have gotten broken fingers from training accidents. If you train with a partner, there is always a risk of this sort of injury. It comes with the territory.
"My thought is that it's the sliding of two instuments against each other that causes most of the smashings. If I'm correct, then it would seem that proper technique would involve not just blocking, but blocking violently. In other words, when you block you also smack/bounce the other guy's weapon away so it can't slide along your own...and therefore it has much less chance of smashing your fingers etc."
"Is this a correct insight? Am I on the right track?"
In the Filipino arts, as I am learning them, you train to hit the other guys fingers, hands, etc., in a real fight. Ideally we don't just block the weapon, but we block the attack and target the weapon hand with the same block.
Sliding can definitely lead to injuries, but injuries can happen other ways too. Even if you don't hit his hand while doing such a combined block/strike as I mentioned above, the strong impact can break their rhythm, and possibly even knock the weapon loose, so powerful blocks can be good in this way.
OTOH, powerful blocks can be a bad thing too. They requre a lot of commitment, and if your opponent is quick, tricky, highly skilled, or just lucky, they may be able to reposition themselves and counterattack against your block, and hit you. You can also swing wider than you might like with a powerful blow, and leave yourself open.
There are other ways to defend too. In addition to powerful "meet the force" blocks, you can pass the weapon, helping it on its way by pushing it along, but redirecting its path away from you while doing so. You can also evade, which it tricky, and which is usually combined with a block or parry where I study.
We generally learn to incorporate a few defenses simultaneously. We might step (right) away from a blow coming towards the left side of our head, while slipping our head right, and while blocking or passing the opponent's weapon. If your block somehow fails, at least you have moved your body away from the point where the blow would have landed with maximum power.
I like moving back while targeting the opponents hand, staying just close enough to hit their hand. This means if they were aiming at my body, they'll be out of range of me, and I'll still have a chance of hitting their extended arm.
I disagree with RA Miller on a couple of points. Modern sports fencing has little in common with what was used in "Renaissance France, Italy or Spain." Arguably, modern sport fencing has the same sort of relationship to ancient war arts (or even dueling arts) that a poodle has with a wolf. Yes, the poodle is more "developed" and "evolved," but it is not better for survivial applications. Fencing is good as a sport that offers little risk of causing much damage to its participants, but it teaches you to operate in a matter that is great for operating within tournament rules, but can limit you in a real fight.
Sport fencers fight in on a very narrow strip that renders lateral and diagonal movement (that could be very useful in a real fight) largely pointless. The foil is a very light training tool that is not the same in design as any real weapon. The fencing sabre is much lighter than any real sabre used in war, and handles very differently from a real sword. The epee is the only fencing weapon with any sort of relation to a real weapon. It is very similar to the smallsword, which was not a weapon of war, but basically a decorative overgrown needle used by inbred nobles to fight duels. Fencing blows are powered by the wrist, and because of this, you don't learn to put your shoulder, let alone your whole body, into the blow. This can be ok if you just want to gain some skils that could be useful with a knife, which is a very light weapon, but if you want to learn to use a staff, heavy stick, or a sword (even one as light as a machete) being used to these sorts of whole-body biomechanics are vital.
(I just cleared out the ivy on my back fence, and the "putting your whole body into it" thing was extremely useful. There were some thick branches, and when I got lazy and just used my wrists to power the cuts, the job got harder. When I put my arms, shoulders, and body into it, I cut through everything much more easily. Good biomechnics are important, and fencing doesn't stress using the whole body in this way).
In addition, in a fencing match you win if you touch your opponent with the tip of your weapon, even if they land a touch on you a half second after. In a game of tournament tag this is ok, but you don't want to do this sort of "I got you first" thing in a fight with real weapons, especially blades.
Modern fencing teaches tactical principles that can be very useful for a martial artist, and can be loads of fun, but as a choice for someone who wants to learn how to use real weapons in a realistic way, it lacks much. It is a form of tag dome with whippy fight steel that does not preform like a real blade. It is a modern sport that has long ago moved away from any roots it may have had as a war art.
BTW, I fenced for two years. I like it for learning about distance and timing, and it is a fairly good foundation for learning some skills that are potentially useful in knife fighting. Modern fencing is a sport though, is optimized to function under a set of very limiting tournament rules. Its training is not optomized to teach you to use real weapons in a no rules situation.
Scaramouche
here is a list of teachers of the Filipino martial arts in Florida. If none are located in Tampa, you might contact the onbes on this list and ask them if they know of any that are...
http://www.pekiti-tirsia.org:8080/msql/FMA/Instructors/search_result.msql
"how do you keep from smashing your fingers etc?"
In my Filipino martial arts training, shots to the fingers (and sometimes other places) have been pretty common. Usually they don't hurt much, but it happens. I know people who have gotten broken fingers from training accidents. If you train with a partner, there is always a risk of this sort of injury. It comes with the territory.
"My thought is that it's the sliding of two instuments against each other that causes most of the smashings. If I'm correct, then it would seem that proper technique would involve not just blocking, but blocking violently. In other words, when you block you also smack/bounce the other guy's weapon away so it can't slide along your own...and therefore it has much less chance of smashing your fingers etc."
"Is this a correct insight? Am I on the right track?"
In the Filipino arts, as I am learning them, you train to hit the other guys fingers, hands, etc., in a real fight. Ideally we don't just block the weapon, but we block the attack and target the weapon hand with the same block.
Sliding can definitely lead to injuries, but injuries can happen other ways too. Even if you don't hit his hand while doing such a combined block/strike as I mentioned above, the strong impact can break their rhythm, and possibly even knock the weapon loose, so powerful blocks can be good in this way.
OTOH, powerful blocks can be a bad thing too. They requre a lot of commitment, and if your opponent is quick, tricky, highly skilled, or just lucky, they may be able to reposition themselves and counterattack against your block, and hit you. You can also swing wider than you might like with a powerful blow, and leave yourself open.
There are other ways to defend too. In addition to powerful "meet the force" blocks, you can pass the weapon, helping it on its way by pushing it along, but redirecting its path away from you while doing so. You can also evade, which it tricky, and which is usually combined with a block or parry where I study.
We generally learn to incorporate a few defenses simultaneously. We might step (right) away from a blow coming towards the left side of our head, while slipping our head right, and while blocking or passing the opponent's weapon. If your block somehow fails, at least you have moved your body away from the point where the blow would have landed with maximum power.
I like moving back while targeting the opponents hand, staying just close enough to hit their hand. This means if they were aiming at my body, they'll be out of range of me, and I'll still have a chance of hitting their extended arm.
I disagree with RA Miller on a couple of points. Modern sports fencing has little in common with what was used in "Renaissance France, Italy or Spain." Arguably, modern sport fencing has the same sort of relationship to ancient war arts (or even dueling arts) that a poodle has with a wolf. Yes, the poodle is more "developed" and "evolved," but it is not better for survivial applications. Fencing is good as a sport that offers little risk of causing much damage to its participants, but it teaches you to operate in a matter that is great for operating within tournament rules, but can limit you in a real fight.
Sport fencers fight in on a very narrow strip that renders lateral and diagonal movement (that could be very useful in a real fight) largely pointless. The foil is a very light training tool that is not the same in design as any real weapon. The fencing sabre is much lighter than any real sabre used in war, and handles very differently from a real sword. The epee is the only fencing weapon with any sort of relation to a real weapon. It is very similar to the smallsword, which was not a weapon of war, but basically a decorative overgrown needle used by inbred nobles to fight duels. Fencing blows are powered by the wrist, and because of this, you don't learn to put your shoulder, let alone your whole body, into the blow. This can be ok if you just want to gain some skils that could be useful with a knife, which is a very light weapon, but if you want to learn to use a staff, heavy stick, or a sword (even one as light as a machete) being used to these sorts of whole-body biomechanics are vital.
(I just cleared out the ivy on my back fence, and the "putting your whole body into it" thing was extremely useful. There were some thick branches, and when I got lazy and just used my wrists to power the cuts, the job got harder. When I put my arms, shoulders, and body into it, I cut through everything much more easily. Good biomechnics are important, and fencing doesn't stress using the whole body in this way).
In addition, in a fencing match you win if you touch your opponent with the tip of your weapon, even if they land a touch on you a half second after. In a game of tournament tag this is ok, but you don't want to do this sort of "I got you first" thing in a fight with real weapons, especially blades.
Modern fencing teaches tactical principles that can be very useful for a martial artist, and can be loads of fun, but as a choice for someone who wants to learn how to use real weapons in a realistic way, it lacks much. It is a form of tag dome with whippy fight steel that does not preform like a real blade. It is a modern sport that has long ago moved away from any roots it may have had as a war art.
BTW, I fenced for two years. I like it for learning about distance and timing, and it is a fairly good foundation for learning some skills that are potentially useful in knife fighting. Modern fencing is a sport though, is optimized to function under a set of very limiting tournament rules. Its training is not optomized to teach you to use real weapons in a no rules situation.
Scaramouche
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Allen M.
Weapons
Hit Rick, er Hi Rick.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's not uncommon for kids (me included) to smash each others fingers and knuckles and hands, while goofing around with "Bo kinda stuff/play"...So comes the question....
When in "real" use, or a tournament setting, or ????, how do you keep from smashing your fingers etc?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When doing two-person sets with the bo, the hand that thinks it is going to hit sneaks behind the bo and the palm pushes forward and even wraps around it a little providing limited support.
A way to think about it is, say, visualize the extended thrust position of the wauke. Hold a bo in your hands and with it at about a 45 degree angle to the vertical. If the top part of the bo is going to get hit, put a death-grip on the stick with the lower hand with the upper open palm-facing-out hand kind of assuming somewhat of a crane position.
It is just a momentary support, and as soon as the strike is over, resume a solid grip.
In FMA, you can't quite do that with bastons.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's not uncommon for kids (me included) to smash each others fingers and knuckles and hands, while goofing around with "Bo kinda stuff/play"...So comes the question....
When in "real" use, or a tournament setting, or ????, how do you keep from smashing your fingers etc?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When doing two-person sets with the bo, the hand that thinks it is going to hit sneaks behind the bo and the palm pushes forward and even wraps around it a little providing limited support.
A way to think about it is, say, visualize the extended thrust position of the wauke. Hold a bo in your hands and with it at about a 45 degree angle to the vertical. If the top part of the bo is going to get hit, put a death-grip on the stick with the lower hand with the upper open palm-facing-out hand kind of assuming somewhat of a crane position.
It is just a momentary support, and as soon as the strike is over, resume a solid grip.
In FMA, you can't quite do that with bastons.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Colin 8 of 8
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Portsmouth Hampshire UK
Weapons
I have been looking for the last month or so to find a place to learn a weapon known as the sojo rope. From what little I have learned this weapon consists of a thin rope with a loop at the end. I wonder how many questions you would be asked if you where found carrying that.
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Colin 8 of 8
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Portsmouth Hampshire UK
Weapons
PS.
10 years various arts.
Currently Kensiki (sp?) Jujitsu
Never graded
Why not
10 years various arts.
Currently Kensiki (sp?) Jujitsu
Never graded
Why not
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Weapons
Actually Rory, I'm going to second your recommendation for fencing. I fenced for about four years in the SCA, and it did a tremendous amount for me. Footwork, distancing, timing...
If you're into JKD, you really need to look into fencing. The two are quite similar in principle/concept.
FMA are also fun. If I ever get the time, I'd love to do more of them...
All depends on what you want to learn, and why.
My .02
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Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae
If you're into JKD, you really need to look into fencing. The two are quite similar in principle/concept.
FMA are also fun. If I ever get the time, I'd love to do more of them...
All depends on what you want to learn, and why.
My .02
------------------
Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae
