In Sanchin Dachi how do you place your legs? Do you bend your knees to block your groin? If the reason is that if someone might do a football kick and kick you in the groin, wouldn't it be very easy to block it? Isn't it a natural reaction for most guys to block there? Isn't that a VERY early lesson . So if it's so easy to block the groin, why stand in sanchin like that? If you lower your legs to block the groin, I tend to notice that if I do that then I am less stabile and immobile, although my legs protect my groin. However If I decrease the bend in my knees, I am more mobile, more stabile, but my legs don't naturally block the groin. However, I could easily move out of range or just block. What are your opinions?
I have a feeling that the "block the groin" concept is a rationale, or a conceptual way of explaining the stance to beginners.
Yeah, it's handy for blocking a sweeping up-kick to the groin, and maybe a non MA would try that, but you're still vulnerable to a kick straight in.
I doubt this would have escaped the notice of generations of masters perpetuating the style's foundational characteristic stance.
I think of it as an added benefit of somewhat unimportant status, but a bonus of being in the position which is correct for other reasons. Reasons which perhaps could not be easily instilled in a beginner,except by telling them "protect your groin!"
It has not escaped MY attention though, that the stance is tested by a sweeping up-kick, and no-one but a teacher has ever done this!
I've noticed that the more wide-stanced styles tend to rely on a more sideways "bladed" and somewhat deeper stance, which incidentally also protect the groin. It's certainly important.
Uechi is a more front-on stance, so some provision has to be made for this obvious attack. But you can get a little "long" and "wide" in the stance and still be able to trap an incoming up-sweep kick by squatting a little.
Maybe I'll test this in our next "designated attacker" sparring session: thanks for the idea! NM
I've always considered sanchin to be a fluid state. I don't advocate static postures unless you want to be hit.
I view the bend in the knees benificial in a number of areas.
Flat footed fighters don't move. Ever see a flat footed sprinter in the starting blocks? Flat footed dancer?
The bend in the knee helps movement imho.
It also facilitates weight transfer between the front and rear foot. This allows one to load up on techniques. It also allows for one to absorb techniques.
Increasing or decreasing the "bend" not only allow one to protect "the jewels" it also is an effective method of slipping: transfer weight foot to foot via the knees and add a slight rotation of the trunk.(move the body without moving the feet,lots of great targets may come your way)
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited July 01, 2002).]
I don't think sanchin would be sanchin anymore if it was a static position. The bend in the knees is absolutely critical....but is it critical to bend them enough to block a football kick coming up to the groin?
Sanchin Dachi is hard to explain anyways and these are really good questions. I have been working Sanchin for about 9 months now, and it still feels so weak! I believe that bending your knees is very beneficial once the stance is mastered. One night in particular I stood in front of the mirror at the dojo and worked the stance until I got it, once I did I found out that bending the knees is more natural. When you try to plant your feet and twist them in simultaneously inward motion. - picture gripping the floor tightly and bending the knees is helpful in my opinion.
As for being immobile- your hit the bulls-eye on that one! lol I think the stance is very awkward and not very useful. Then again, Sanchin was never menat to be a kata- simply a breathing form that helped focus and breath control. (i think- anyone got info on that! want to learn!!!!) I find this stance difficult but I have seen higher ranks in MA that preform this and it seems to be effective and pretty accurate.
My sensei's stance for randori was a modified sanchen stance. When I came to the school i tended to take a more bladed posture. I learned very quickly that I would either have to do something else or spend most of class picking myself up. The flex in the knees protects them from kicks and the stance is hard to sweep.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think the stance is very
awkward and not very useful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It can be in the early stages of learning, using the stance while standing waist high in the push/pull action of Ocean waves (Great lakes do same I hear) and moving over uneven ground esp. in dark helps develope the "sensors" for the stance. The stance should feel alive and carry and move your midsection like it was riding on a good suspension system that reads/adjust to any outside force.
IMHO Sanchin Dachi should constantly adjust to the bodies needs.
Stop focusing on bending the knees so much. Instead, think of it this way.
Consider that curiosity item that is the suspending stainless steel balls that go back and forth when you pull one out. Normally if you pull just one out and let it go, the ones in the middle hold perfectly still and the outside one on the other side flies out. It's an amazing display of physics (conservation of momentum, elastic collision, etc.). Now what would happen if you grabbed the string on a ball in the middle, and pull it slightly off line? You cannot transfer the energy through to the other side. The whole device ceases to be able to transfer the momentum of the ball on the left to the ball on the right.
Consider that you want to make your spine as such, because you want a contraction of the legs and hips to transfer to the shoulder and arm. In sanchin, we seek to minimize the lumbar lordosis (curve in of the lower back) and thoracic kyphosis (curve out of the upper back). We want the discs of our spine to be like the balls that are perfectly in line. The first and most important thing to do to accomplish that is to tuck the pelvis under. Two pretty neat things happen when you do that. First, you contract your abdominal wall. When you contract a muscle, you make it thicker. Thus our abdomen is rendered stronger, and less vulnerable to an attack. The second thing you HAPPEN to do is bend the knees. You cannot tuck the pelvis under without bending the knees.
Once you HAPPEN to have bent the knees to get the pelvis under, STOP!! Don't go any more. Just...sit on that position. You can go up and down like the suspension system of a sports car, but "home" should be that reference point. Now, turn the heels out (don't think of turning the feet in). Make sure the knees are pointed in the direction of the toes. Once you've done that, grab the floor with feet and isometrically turn the legs out again. You have accomplished several things here. First, you can stop that kick by doing absolutely nothing; the adductor muscles are in the way. Just stand there. Second, you are grabbing on to the floor like a bug on glass. Third, you have "cocked the trigger" for a number of motions. That is potential energy that can be turned into a movement in any direction, or a front kick off the front leg.
Give it some time...
I am also in agreement that over time, one learns that sanchin stance is a very fluid, active thing. Only the beginner must consider it as static.
Thank you for the explanation. Well put and was worth reading several times! Makes a lot of sense to me and I am slow on comprehending things in text. Appreciate the advice and your helpful comments
Mal, Sensei (it only feels proper!) lol
I am slightly confused on what you are saying about whipping. Seeing that you and I should have very similar technique, it may be easier to explain for me. I am interested, but too dense to understand whta you wrote. Thanks!
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As for everyone else, have you ever heard that people test tension by striking various areas of the body? ok.. I believe most of you would say yes to this. Now, have you heard of a particular spot somewhere near the inner part of your pelvic bone? It supposedly is the last muscle group that you tense in this stance. I am not sure if this is true and hopefully some of you can clarify this for me.
Sanchin is Chinkuchi---which is the whole body-flinching-strike unique to Okinawan karate. It kind of teaches you to use the whole body in a whipping or contraction/expansion-type motion.
The subsequent "Japanization" of karate removed this power and replaced it with the full hip-rotation muscular-type strike---totally uneccesary for power.
Watch the old-masters, how much hip rotation do you see? Watch Sanchin, how much hip-rotation do you see? Sanchin teaches the body to generate power in the most efficient manner by breathing and contracting the muscles properly. The power flows up from the ground (Sanchin stance teaches proper grounding), then whips through the body and expresses itself through the sword (hand).
I know this is going to sound like a cop-out, but I asked Sensei Advincula these same questions that you are asking, about four years ago at a seminar---he gave me some good advice---"Just keep doing the kata". You can sit around and talk all you want about kata, but the secret is in the doing. Your body has innate knowledge, just keep chipping away at everything that doesn't seem like Sanchin until you are left with perfection.
As far as whipping, try to think of your arms and legs as whips instead of baseball bats. The power in a whip is in the pull-back, when it snaps. Thats why Isshinryu teaches to pull the strikes back faster than you put it out. Think of the speed that you pull your hand back with when it touches a hot light bulb or teapot---that is Chinkuchi. Very hard to reproduce, but gives us something to shoot for.
The muscle you may be talking about is called the levator-ani. It is very useful in very deep breathing and for completely tucking in the pelvis. Also used in Yoga for root-locks. It is the muscle that you use when you are on a long road-trip and the driver doesn't want to stop for p-brakes:-) Hope this isn't more than you wanted to know, but you did ask.
. So if it's so easy to block the groin, why stand in sanchin like that? If you lower your legs to block the groin, I tend to notice that if I do that then I am less stabile and immobile, although my legs protect my groin. However If I decrease the bend in my knees, I am more mobile, more stabile, but my legs don't naturally block the groin. However, I could easily move out of range or just block. What are your opinions?
