While taking sunsu8's survey "what about YOU" I reflected on how simple advanced practitioners make the moves look. I began wondering, are the moves truly that simple and it's just that we somehow make the moves hard? Is THAT the fight against ourselves, to let ourself see how simple it really is? Is that how you advance, letting go of your mind (or part of it) that says "This is so hard!"?
Just Wondering
-David
Simplicity
Moderator: Available
Simplicity
David/Dominiuno:
Musicians confront this aspect on a regular basis.
Really good musicians make it look easy, but you can't emulate them by attempting this.
What you are seeing is the end result of a long road of internalization which expresses itself outwardly. There is no shortcut to this stage...like "antiqueing wood" artificially.
The easiness is the result of long years of struggling toward familiarity.
Stop thinking of the word "simple" as meaning "easy", and start thinking of "simple" as meaning "composed of few parts".
I think the ongoing elimination of the "extra parts" is what leads to the simpleness you observe. NM
Musicians confront this aspect on a regular basis.
Really good musicians make it look easy, but you can't emulate them by attempting this.
What you are seeing is the end result of a long road of internalization which expresses itself outwardly. There is no shortcut to this stage...like "antiqueing wood" artificially.
The easiness is the result of long years of struggling toward familiarity.
Stop thinking of the word "simple" as meaning "easy", and start thinking of "simple" as meaning "composed of few parts".
I think the ongoing elimination of the "extra parts" is what leads to the simpleness you observe. NM
Simplicity
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2Green:
I think the ongoing elimination of the "extra parts" is what leads to the simpleness you observe. NM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
EXACTLY!
What I was thinking a bit more though is that the extra parts as you put it were never there, but in our misunderstanding or somehow they got there, and by removing them we get the total move. However, you need the internal aspects (definitely). Wouldn't removing the extra parts develop this internal aspect? So the process of removing the extras are the true journey of advancement.....I think...
-David
I think the ongoing elimination of the "extra parts" is what leads to the simpleness you observe. NM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
EXACTLY!
What I was thinking a bit more though is that the extra parts as you put it were never there, but in our misunderstanding or somehow they got there, and by removing them we get the total move. However, you need the internal aspects (definitely). Wouldn't removing the extra parts develop this internal aspect? So the process of removing the extras are the true journey of advancement.....I think...
-David
Simplicity
Dave-
Yes, the moves, all the really effective moves are just that simple. Babies roll and fall like expert judoka, most of the time. People train for years to develope the kind of power that they have naturally when they walk into a coffee table in the dark. Watch a rancher buck hay bales and you'll see a nearly perfect ushiro-goshi (reverse hip throw) sometimes with a knee strike assist.
Most of the time I think that training is mostly stripping away bad habits and insecurities, more a process of forgetting than of learning.
Rory
Yes, the moves, all the really effective moves are just that simple. Babies roll and fall like expert judoka, most of the time. People train for years to develope the kind of power that they have naturally when they walk into a coffee table in the dark. Watch a rancher buck hay bales and you'll see a nearly perfect ushiro-goshi (reverse hip throw) sometimes with a knee strike assist.
Most of the time I think that training is mostly stripping away bad habits and insecurities, more a process of forgetting than of learning.
Rory
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Simplicity
May I offer another point of view? As Einstein would put it, it's all relative to your reference frame. It only looks simple from the outside; from the standpoint of the body, what appears simple is quite complex.
Take one of the most basic movements in the first kata in sanchin - the wauke. In the Karate Kid, Miyagi has Daniel waxing cars to pick up the movement. It's nothing more than a perfect circle on a plane parallel to the front of body, with the center at the solar plexus. Simple, right? Not really. What is the joint that this technique spins off of? The shoulder joint. Now...consider that circular movement with the center of the motion (not the circle) being the shoulder - off to one side. Consider also that it is largely controlled by the muscles at that joint - the most complex joint in the body. From the reference frame of those muscles, that move is EXTREMELY complex. A simple circle would be one centered at the shoulder. The wauke is MUCH more complex, being at a different center and a foreign plane.
When done correctly, it is only simple to the observer that considers the reference frame of the body that the motion protects.
Take the simple thrust. No big deal if we hold the body still, right? Just extend the arm straight forward. Now...do the motion the way you are SUPPOSED to do it. Compress on the rear leg and turn the striking shoulder back. What?? Are you making that fist point outwards? How could you be polluting such a simple motion? Forearm comes straight forward like an arrow, right?
Alas, driving the arrow with the legs, hips, and waist - the way one is supposed to thrust - means making the movements complex wrt the muscles that are controlling it so that the appearance of the forearm coming forward looks simple.
What a paradox!
Want simple movement? Watch the way you stumble to the bathroom late at night when you are half asleep. That's the way you move when you are making things simple. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 02, 2002).]
Take one of the most basic movements in the first kata in sanchin - the wauke. In the Karate Kid, Miyagi has Daniel waxing cars to pick up the movement. It's nothing more than a perfect circle on a plane parallel to the front of body, with the center at the solar plexus. Simple, right? Not really. What is the joint that this technique spins off of? The shoulder joint. Now...consider that circular movement with the center of the motion (not the circle) being the shoulder - off to one side. Consider also that it is largely controlled by the muscles at that joint - the most complex joint in the body. From the reference frame of those muscles, that move is EXTREMELY complex. A simple circle would be one centered at the shoulder. The wauke is MUCH more complex, being at a different center and a foreign plane.
When done correctly, it is only simple to the observer that considers the reference frame of the body that the motion protects.
Take the simple thrust. No big deal if we hold the body still, right? Just extend the arm straight forward. Now...do the motion the way you are SUPPOSED to do it. Compress on the rear leg and turn the striking shoulder back. What?? Are you making that fist point outwards? How could you be polluting such a simple motion? Forearm comes straight forward like an arrow, right?
Alas, driving the arrow with the legs, hips, and waist - the way one is supposed to thrust - means making the movements complex wrt the muscles that are controlling it so that the appearance of the forearm coming forward looks simple.
What a paradox!
Want simple movement? Watch the way you stumble to the bathroom late at night when you are half asleep. That's the way you move when you are making things simple. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Watch a toddler stumble through his first steps. That's simple movement. Watch a model glide down the runway, or a karate master move through kata as if gliding on ice. That is VERY complex, but looks simple and smooth and clean from the outside.Babies roll and fall like expert judoka, most of the time.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 02, 2002).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Simplicity
If good athletes make things look simple, well how do they do that?
What's going on here is a system optimization process. How do I want to throw the bail of hay? Well I want to do it in a fashion that expends the least amount of energy, and makes the bail go as far as possible (maximize efficiency and power output). Someone shows me the basic movement. I kinda get it right. I do it again, slightly differently (few people do things EXACTLY the same way each time). That felt a little worse. I do it again. Hmmm...that way felt a little easier. I do it 1000 times... Pretty soon, I have fallen into a groove - the optimal movement pattern. I have created fairly strong synaptic codes in my brain which instruct each and every muscle what to do at what exact period of time.
Simple, right?
- Bill
What's going on here is a system optimization process. How do I want to throw the bail of hay? Well I want to do it in a fashion that expends the least amount of energy, and makes the bail go as far as possible (maximize efficiency and power output). Someone shows me the basic movement. I kinda get it right. I do it again, slightly differently (few people do things EXACTLY the same way each time). That felt a little worse. I do it again. Hmmm...that way felt a little easier. I do it 1000 times... Pretty soon, I have fallen into a groove - the optimal movement pattern. I have created fairly strong synaptic codes in my brain which instruct each and every muscle what to do at what exact period of time.
Simple, right?
- Bill
-
jorvik
Simplicity
just a thought.
beginners move with only techniques in mind, this is a throw , that is a punch.etc...
sometimes, if your very lucky ( find a really good teacher, or perhaps stumble on it yourself) you may find a principle...from that principle you can go on to develop many techniques..
beginners move with only techniques in mind, this is a throw , that is a punch.etc...
sometimes, if your very lucky ( find a really good teacher, or perhaps stumble on it yourself) you may find a principle...from that principle you can go on to develop many techniques..
Simplicity
I agree with your last comment jorvik! IT seems when a very dedicated instructor takes a punch and shows you that if you retract it, it will become a block, and then can wrap the opponents are and takedown. A beginner is amazed by this- and intermediate (kyu-grade that is) tries to figure out how he did it. An advance kyu-grade looks at it and says can you take it he other way? A black belt looks at it and says good technique but not probable in a cobat situation. A sandan/yodan(yondan) sees it as merely one of the techniques possible from that situation and not the most effective - and a highdan would probably watch the lower ranked dan (1st or 2nd) and reflect on where that karateka has progressed and come from in training and smile with satisfaction. (i dunno-just a guess!)
Anyway.I believe that a good instructor can make everyone learn adn also help the lower ranks to start thinking of "What else could this be?"
~sunsu
P.S. I apologize for the babble
Anyway.I believe that a good instructor can make everyone learn adn also help the lower ranks to start thinking of "What else could this be?"
~sunsu
P.S. I apologize for the babble
-
jorvik
Simplicity
hi sunsu.
yes that is what I meant, but it can go a lot deeper than that as well, you can find people, especially in the aiki arts, but also in judo and jui-jitsu who have got to a stage were they almost casually toss you across a room- and you have no idea how they did it-they have learnt techniques based on principles and continued to refine and develop them.
There is a thing called a "dragon mask"...happens when you go against somebody soooo..much better than yourself..and you can get nowhere..but you persever..and accidentaly you score on them, then you do it occasionally, then more ...eventually, you can break the dragon mask.
you may not be better than them yet..but they no longer appear a god.When you next face somebody else, you now have that knowledge....getting back to principles..they can be very simple, but they give you an edge..when you spar keep moving-moving target harder to hit-keep your hands up, always press your opponent keep them off balance and defending...
learn that there is no defence against a surprise attack...except not being surprised.....but then, it ceases to be a surprise attack!! they re the simple ones, sometimes you learn something really profound. the principle of winning??? who knows?
yes that is what I meant, but it can go a lot deeper than that as well, you can find people, especially in the aiki arts, but also in judo and jui-jitsu who have got to a stage were they almost casually toss you across a room- and you have no idea how they did it-they have learnt techniques based on principles and continued to refine and develop them.
There is a thing called a "dragon mask"...happens when you go against somebody soooo..much better than yourself..and you can get nowhere..but you persever..and accidentaly you score on them, then you do it occasionally, then more ...eventually, you can break the dragon mask.
you may not be better than them yet..but they no longer appear a god.When you next face somebody else, you now have that knowledge....getting back to principles..they can be very simple, but they give you an edge..when you spar keep moving-moving target harder to hit-keep your hands up, always press your opponent keep them off balance and defending...
learn that there is no defence against a surprise attack...except not being surprised.....but then, it ceases to be a surprise attack!! they re the simple ones, sometimes you learn something really profound. the principle of winning??? who knows?
