Newbie with Questions

[Le Haggard]

Hello Everyone!

A friend recommended this board to me as a good place to find out more about martial arts as relating to women's self-defense issues. I recently started learning martial arts after having participated in a seminar a friend of mine organized. He is now actually my instructor as well. I'm moving in a couple months though and am exploring other training options.

I became interested in martial arts mainly to overcome some panic reactions that have been programmed into me and to be able to feel "safe" in some way. I've been told repeatedly during training and social situations alike to "just relax" or to "calm down" and that "its ok, you are safe here." Apparently, I have put up that "invisible wall" that locks everyone out. I know quite well, however, that it is no real defense.

Now those questions I mentioned... I've read the various threads on this part of the site about self defense techniques taught in classes, steps of dealing with situations, etc. Likewise, in the various self-defense seminars I've participated in, women are taught certain techniques that, quite frankly from my perspective, are for situations that are not like the "real thing." As someone mentioned (sorry I don't remember who), what about dealing with a situation after you have been hit in the head, are in severe pain, or in absolute shock/terror?

I'm working to overcome panic reactions in general, but how do women (and men) train for situations in which panic, pain, and/or terror ARE what will be happening? It seems that the needs I have are much different from the self-defense against straight forward barroom kind of fight that many of these seminars address. How should a person prepare for fighting from a corner, on a bed, in a car, behind bushes, cornered in an office, wearing high heels and a fitted skirt? (Kudos for the previous mentions of fighting against a wall or in a bathroom! )

Issues of not allowing people to enter "personal" space? Most women are attacked by people they KNOW who routinely have greater allowances to personal space. The shock of a friend, colleague, or family member whom you *trusted* can delay response and confuse issues of how to respond to someone whom you are conditioned to not harm and perhaps even more importantly, that you would expect to help *protect* you. The "mental game" becomes a major problem in so many ways.

How often, realistically, is there sufficient warning for women to prevent, avoid, or deflect an attack before its already started? Is there a difference in the way women and men should learn martial arts for self-defense as a result of the different contexts in which the assaults are likely to occur for them?

Well, there is my first battery of questions for everyone. I have plenty more as well. I've really enjoyed reading the board so far. Any input that can be provided to this rank newbie on how to pursue martial arts for self-defense would be very much appreciated!

Le'

[Dana Sheets]

Hi Le', and Welcome!!!

The questions you ask are some of the core issues to be dealt with in martial arts training today. There are aspects of training that focus purely on self-defense, there are aspects that focus on self-improvement, there are aspects that focus on physical conditioning, mental conditioning, and there are many who feel spiritual growth from their training.

Will it really work when it really goes down? And the ultimate answer is...maybe.

However, there are many things to be done that will improve your maybe coeffiecient. (i.e. improve your chances of a successful defesne in a real encounter)

There are a couple of well-known groups that have developed systems around what's commonly called "scenario training" these days.

Tony Blauer and SPEAR
http://www.tonyblauer.com

Bill Kipp and FAST Defense
http://www.fastdefense.com

These two groups do the "reality" thing, do the "what happens now that these two bad guys have you cornered" "what happens now that you'd lying flat on your stomach and there's a guy pinning you to the ground/the bed." kind of stuff.
If these are your greatest fears - then I strongly suggest you take a look at these two programs, or the similar "model mugging" programs that are out there.

How often, realistically, is there sufficient warning for women to prevent, avoid, or deflect an attack before its already started? Is there a difference in the way women and men should learn martial arts for self-defense as a result of the different contexts in which the assaults are likely to occur for them?

These are two wonderful questions and I'd love to hear what others have to say.

Dana

[Le Haggard]

Thanks for the welcome Dana!

There are a couple of well-known groups that have developed systems around what's commonly called "scenario training" these days.

Tony Blauer and SPEAR
http://www.tonyblauer.com

Bill Kipp and FAST Defense
http://www.fastdefense.com

These two groups do the "reality" thing, do the "what happens now that these two bad guys have you cornered" "what happens now that you'd lying flat on your stomach and there's a guy pinning you to the ground/the bed." kind of stuff.

If these are your greatest fears - then I strongly suggest you take a look at these two programs, or the similar "model mugging" programs that are out there.

My current teacher actually gave me some reference material on Tony Blauer but I had not heard anything about Bill Kipp and "FAST." Thanks for the reference. The situations I mentioned aren't my greatest fears per se, but the kind of situations that I know are most likely to happen. There are plenty of others of course: fighting on the ground with someone standing over you, fighting when you can't breathe, escaping from attacks, etc.

I'm a single parent with kids age 12 and 13. There have been increasing numbers of break-ins specifically to single women's homes both where I'm living and the university campus where I'm moving. Domestic violence is always an issue for women and children, too. The reality of life is that I know I'm the only defense the family has. It's frightening enough having to fight for your own safety without adding fighting for your children's safety to that. You can't escape and run, leaving your children behind with a violent nutcase!

To me, defense in these very real situations, not hypothetical situations, are what is important over any other consideration of martial arts. Isn't that what the original purpose of martial arts was for? The philosophy I've read about martial arts seems to indicate that any spiritual, fitness, or other considerations are entirely secondary to protection. That's exactly why I'm so intent on learning; I have a motive and definate need to protect myself and my children in a world that is too often hostile to women and children.

These programs you've mentioned sound great. I would love to hear other people's views about differences in training, too.

Thanks again for the welcome!

Le'

[IJ]

Some thoughts for people seeking to pursue martial arts for self defense:

--don't confuse the two

--99% of self defense doesn't involve combat; 100% of what's left is unscripted

--100% of martial arts conflict occurs in a structured setting

--what's more effective in a fight, a shuto or running shoes?

--what's more effective in a cornered fight, a shuto, or a weapon you carried?

--know ahead of time if you can bury a knife 5 inches in someone's eye, or bite off an ear if you have to.

[Dana Sheets]

I'm not sure I'd suggest carrying a weapon without training. However I'd strongly suggest carrying a weapon you're trained to use and trained WHEN to use.

Weapons are great equilizers for women, and they also up the ante on the force continuum. Jim Maloney and many other LEOs teacher the 1 plus system.

Empty hand vs night stick & pepper spray
pipe vs gun
gun vs many guns

I.e. never try to fight the fight with equality - that's just silly if you're fighting for your life. At the same time, a weapon only works when it is in your hands. And many situations start with no warning at all - which means your weapon will still be in your pocket or worse yet, your pocketbook.

And there is alot to be the said for the confidence learned in structured training and alot to be said for the learning curve of physical contact that comes with many traditional and modern arts.

So I agree with Ian that you must be clear in what you're learning, I do not agree that 99% of martial arts trianing is useless in self-defense.

Dana

[IJ]

I'm not saying 99% of martial arts is useless in combat. I said that 99% of self defense should be occuring before combat. Avoidance and escape are just more powerful weapons for most people than are shokens. Yet, no one is ever going to write in and say, "Oh, I survived a fight because I was trained and practiced avoidance." They may never notice what didn't occur--that's the point.

I agree that people should be well trained in whatever weapon they carry. Being poorly trained in your weapon CAN make it useless or even a liability. N.B.: your fists and other natural weapons are included in this caveat.

[jorvik]

surely the Bullet man scenario proves that 99% of martial arts are useless?
in terms of self defence at least ...........I mean they are saying that you loose all but basic motor skills, so why practice kata or sophisticated techniques....what is the point?
Or alternativey they are saying that only gross motor skills apply in a combat?self-defence scenario...so why not just practise them....Thai boxing,Boxing etc?........but heck knife beats body, gun beats knife.......so why not practise an art that just allows you to get your firearm out as quick as possible?

[Shaolin]

surely the Bullet man scenario proves that 99% of martial arts are useless?

I certainly don't agree here. In some cases an individual may discover that whatever they thought would work, or whatever reactions they had in the exercise were less than ideal. I completely reject the idea that these venues have proved anything even remotely indicating that "martial arts are useless," though it may prove that some kinds of training are nearly useless. When we say Martial Arts we are including a huge pile of vastly different things. Some of these arts may not work well for some people but this cannot speak for all arts and the diversity they represent. It is very arguable that many or most arts today are not practiced the way they were intended either in form or substance.

I mean they are saying that you loose all but basic motor skills, so why practice kata or sophisticated techniques....what is the point?

The point is that most arts teach in layers. The first layer being the primal one. This contains the simplest and most basic movements and concepts. The proponents of these "reality venues" acknowledge the fact that many or most systems have these "gross motor" elements. How you put these basics together, and if you do, is a big question. Simple moves applied with a common thread that utilize a well thought out combat strategy can be devastatingly effective. Later layers of a system may be more complex or not. Personally I do not see advanced lessons in my system as any more “complicated” or any more "fine motor" it’s just another way to use the same old tools. It's understood that beginning students will be inherently more spastic as compared to more advanced students. The movements become smaller and economical, more accurate and appropriate to the job at hand. This is true in any physical endeavor. Both a beginner and an advanced student in WCK can do the system – the question really is how well and how much of the system can they use. Another question might be how much of this or another system do you need - how much is enough? We recommend finishing the system. I recommend that and crosstraining.

In the end the martial artist seeks simplicity certainly the law of “the dump” supports the KISS concept which any good WCK student (and perhaps any martial student) embraces. The road to that end is long and paved with dilligence. The same is true in all sports - beginning athletes are more erratic and less physically reliable than more experienced players especially under stress. Does an (advanced) Ball player use "fine motor" skills or does he use mostly the same moves, pluse some that his junior does only with greater precision and timing?

After the basic layer perhaps at some point arts may cross the line into fine motor skills, but where? I've seen no art that relies on the ability to thread a needle or unlock a door with a key while under the "rush," nor is it clear where the line is crossed in fine motor techniques in a style vs. something else. I could easily make a case for almost every "move" in WCK as being a "gross motor" move. Add in the fact that WCK and BJJ among other similar arts use sensitivity (feel) to train motor reactions and you have an entire gray area that I have yet seen addressed at all by the Adrenal Stress people. Certainly most would agree that BJJ will work under the dump, right? Are their movements any more or less "gross motor" than anything else? From my perspective some of those BJJ moves are more complex and involve more movements than even what WCK does.

Human beings are analog machines capable of amazing adaptation of both mind and body, and of course spirit. Drawing a line in the sand and saying that A is good B won't work may be true for certain people under certain conditions and in certain contexts however to use these gigantic generalizations to condemn all arts with a blanket statement is very misleading and not helpful IMO.

Or alternativey they are saying that only gross motor skills apply in a combat?self-defence scenario...so why not just practise them....Thai boxing,Boxing etc?

Again I suggest that Boxing, et al and the movements used there are no more or less “gross motor” than most of what is to be found in most arts. However there are elements simply missing from WB, etc that can be of great use in street combat or be a great liability if you don’t have them. It is critical that whatever one trains provides the smaller weaker student with a set of options to follow, from training, that will foster the ability to adapt to a stronger faster opponent in ways that are unexpected, relentless and scientifically sound.

Astutely pointed out by Dana was the fact that in reality you will often NOT have time to whip out your (Insert favorite weapon here) to even up the odds. In this case having trained a sound (unarmed) combat strategy may be the only weapon at your disposal.

Jim

[jorvik]

Hi Jim,
What you have in the bullet man scenario is people using basic moves. Palm heel strikes, knees and elbows. The people who go to these seminars are, a lot of the time, skilled ma's. i think that there has been an acknowledgement by some of them that only the basic techniques work, and there have been discussions on other forums before about fine and gross motor skills ( I was one of those who was undecided as to whether or not you could use fine motor skills, and I'm still undecided) ........I've never seen anybody use Chi Sao against a bulletman ....but it is true to say that it is hard to define the line between fine and gross, maybe simple and complicated is a better definition. Have you ever done Chi Sao full contact?

[AlanL]

100%???

I would like to try and put a different frame around studying a Martial Art and fighting a bulletman in a scenario attack.

The percent of techniques available and useful will very by individual and the amount of exposure to adrenaline filled scenarios (most people can only access 5 bits of information during an adrenal dump). By design these scenarios are fast and furious (less than a minute) and wouldn’t allow a large percent of your training to spill out.

My point is, that training 100% of my Martial Art will make whatever percent I can pull off while adrenalized better. Second point is, that the only way you can know what you can really do is to experience adrenal stress training.

[2Green]

"What you have in the bullet man scenario is people using basic moves. Palm heel strikes, knees and elbows. "

Hmmm...sounds like Uechi Ryu!

Don't forget that "ability to apply" is not the same as "value of technique".
Techniques are one thing, method of learning to apply, and final ability to apply by the defender are another.
Just as we can't take an outstanding example of our style and pin his/her medals on our chest, we cannot take a disastrous failure of application and use it to justify putting down the style.

NM

[jorvik]

With regard to Le's original post and MA's. I often wonder about unarmed combat, it really confuses me ....especially on forums were some of the participants have more guns than the Alamo locked up in their cupboard .....and I think that it has always been that way, folks have always gone for weapons before anything else. The unarmed side is a luxury.....a nice idea if you will....occaionally we touch on the stark terror of a different reality.
Le was making the point about women who are attacked being accused of provoking the attack by wearing sensual or revealing clothing......but as a martial artist this is delusary thinking......that comes later, if you are very lucky and survive the attack. None of Bundy's victims had to face that line of questioning. If a woman is dragged into a car beaten sensless, raped then dumped out of the car chances are she won't remember a hell of a lot of what happened ( part of the adrenal thingy )......chances are her attackers will never be caught...but she would be lucky, she would have survived.
As regards real self defence/real conflict management you have to think away from the mainstream, try to decipher what Sun Tsu or Musashi really meant. As an example consider a burglar breaking into a women's house, he may say be quiet and I won't hurt you or your children......just let me have what I want ..............some women would try to appease him.
But consider what Musashi says.....you need to see yourself in the enemies position. He needs quiet if she makes noise then it is to his disadvantage. Why should she trust what he says? Also consider what her weapon of choice would be, a precision firearm a Glock with a New York trigger, how would that appear to an intruder?.......I think a double barrelled shotgun would be much more scary in the hands of a frightened woman defending her honour and the lives of her children....and it could do a lot more damage. As to personal image and confidence, my personal experience is that there is nothing more empowering than lifting weights ( I am not a bodybuilder or anything like that )......but the incredible rate at which you gain strength ( if you persist ) and in a very short time is astounding

[Dana Sheets]

Gaining strength...

To what end? To what end to we train? We train to gain strength is some aspect.

Bulletman BASICS training teaches five basic techniques. The ground seminar teaches at least five more techniques. The weapons seminars still more. The multiple attacker scenarios add more, etc. So like any kind of training, it builds.

Uechi-ryu kata teach bread and butter technique. It's just that depending on your body and your level of skill your bread and butter will be different than mine. Uechi kata also teach you how to use your entire body in a technique. In fact, one of the reasons I was as successful at the Bulletman training as I was, was because of my Uechi-Ryu kata training.

The other important thing to remember is that in Bulletman training all the vital areas are covered by 3-10 inches of padding. So you can't hit the neck...there isn't any neck. And you can't hit the kidneys...there aren't any kidneys. And you can't it the...you get the picture. The Bulletman training has it's limits too which is why cross-training is so important. Tony Blauer's equipment allows you to go for more precise targets, but you have to use more control. Night of the living dead drills allow you to use any weapon against any target...but you have to do it in slow motion. Again, cross-training is important.

Heck, most of my current "bread and butter" techniques currently come from Seichin kata. Because that kata easily illustrates how off-balancing combined with movement combined with simultaneous striking puts you in a superior position to your opponent...just like most Martial Arts.

I could also say that most weight training people do doesn't do a darn thing for their actual strength - it helps them to look strong. Many parallels there between bad martial arts and bad weight training. Which is why "kung fu" means something like "deep knowledge or deep skill". Scratch the surface of any art and that's all you have...the crust. Take one Bulletman class and you have the crust of adrenal stress training. Take one or two months of a traditional art and you've bitten into the peel of the apple and no further.
There is no magical short-term path to well-rounded self-defense. And it is not a closed circuit. Either you're getting better at self-defense, or you're getting worse. Constant training (if it's good training) should lead to constant improvement in skill.

And, IMNSHO, since women have more barriers than men to overcome before they become proficient at self-defense, then their training needs to be even more constant, even more varied, and even more vigiant.

[2Green]

Dana, that was an awesome post!
Later I may askabout your findings in Seichin, but for now, how about a pertinent question in Le H.'s original post?

" Is there a difference in the way women and men should learn martial arts for self-defense as a result of the different contexts in which the assaults are likely to occur for them?"

I think that's a legitimate question, and relevant to the forum.

NM

[Shaolin]

Hi Jim,
What you have in the bullet man scenario is people using basic moves. Palm heel strikes, knees and elbows.

Hi Jorvik,

Basic moves? Then I guess there are really only basic moves in WCK, or again in most arts. The weapons used 90% of the time in WCK are a single punch, palms, elbows and single kick.

I was one of those who was undecided as to whether or not you could use fine motor skills, and I'm still undecided

I am not familiar with any 'fine motor' tools in WCK, as I understand the term.

I've never seen anybody use Chi Sao against a bulletman

I assume this was made in jest?

Chi Sao is about WCK attribute development, it's an exercise. Anyone using WCK attributes acquired from this training is "using their Chi Sao."

Many a 'young' WCK student has remarked that he/she would simply 'Chi Sao' an opponent in a fight. This shows a misunderstanding of how the system is employed and a problematic mindset. Without going into the technical details: The correct mindset in WCK is one of attack. In simple terms one should not be thinking 'Chi Sao,' rather, one should be thinking about continuously 'hitting/striking' the opponent in the realm of many hits per second. This is the primary focus (offense), all other things (defense) are secondary and only exist to facilitate the primary objective.

Simplicity is what WCK seeks beyond all else. What might appear complex in training to the uninitiated is really just a long string of simple moves used conceptually, to develop WCK attributes. In combat good WCK should look very, very simple – if the ‘effect’ appears ridiculously disproportionate to the ‘cause’ then you’ve just seen good WCK. In a situation where Bullet men do not even resist or they resist minimally, well then the ‘cause and effect’ should be that much simpler. No need for ‘sticking’ here.

but it is true to say that it is hard to define the line between fine and gross, maybe simple and complicated is a better definition.

Perhaps, but even at the most advanced levels of WCK I see nothing any more ‘complicated’ than in the beginning. At advanced levels the same tools are used plus a few and concepts are expanded upon. The real difference is that the advanced students simply make better use conceptually of a few more tools. I do not think WCK is unique in this respect.

Have you ever done Chi Sao full contact?

Yes, or very close to full contact with varying, but minimal protective gear other than headgear – I no longer believe in using any kind of gloves. Myself and friends have used full or close to it in both Chi Sao and in Sparring Drills. During these drills I was trying to apply max power and all involved had jello brain afterwards - this kind of training IMO should be used sparingly to monitor progress.

Traditionally WCK gradually adds more power into Chi Sao training – we call this learning how to release energy. Always fun to play with someone working on this.