Kata Origin?

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 1:16 am

Does anyone know of a kata that has it beginings here in North America? (I don't mean kempo kata but kata that conform to traditional karate)

Karateka

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 9:55 pm

What do you mean "conform to traditional karate?" It almost sounds like "traditional" is equivalent to "Asian," and so the answer would always be 'No.'

Folks at U.Va. have their own definition of "traditional." That would be anything that they'd like to attribute to Thomas Jefferson, regardless of whether or not he had anything to do with it.

- Bill

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:24 am

Bill Glasheen wrote:What do you mean "conform to traditional karate?" It almost sounds like "traditional" is equivalent to "Asian," and so the answer would always be 'No.'

Folks at U.Va. have their own definition of "traditional." That would be anything that they'd like to attribute to Thomas Jefferson, regardless of whether or not he had anything to do with it.

- Bill

I'm not sure what the above means, is it a politic's thing?

Thaws · Post by **Thaws** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:27 am

I'm beginning to believe that self defense techniques are like music. Theres nothing that hasn't been done before, its just how one interprets the application. So anyone can string together their favorite techniques and label it their kata. But the techniques themselves are nothing new, just as with most other katas.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:27 pm

I'm not sure what the above means, is it a politic's thing?

Gosh... Sometimes you think people would understand, and then you see they don't. Perhaps some U.Va.-ers can chime in here.

Thomas Jefferson founded The University of Virginia. He actually had a line of trees cut out from the side of the mountain where his home (Montecello) was so he could view construction of "The Academical Village." The Greek architecture he observed in his travels of Europe is echoed all over Charlottesville from the original Rotunda (designed like the Pantheon) to the columns of the recently-upgraded football stadium. Jefferson had an ideal when he founded U.Va. that is difficult to reproduce today. He had the faculty housing built right in the midst of student housing. The idea was to make the learning experience carry on outside the formal classroom. A similar concept was tried at Princeton in the Institute for Advanced Studies. Princeton recruited the likes of Einstein, Oppenheimer, and Von Neuman who would have tea with students and share their views.

Today students speak as if "he" still lives around The University. The word "tradition" is thrown around in excess, and used whenever someone tries to make a point. For example, a single sanction honor system was put together long after Thomas Jefferson's death, and yet people try to invoke his name (TJ would roll in his grave if...) whenever someone wants to muck with it. It gets very amusing to any of us who know our history.

Whenever I hear the word "traditional" thrown around in martial arts, it makes me chuckle just a little. Kanbun was just another great man, and I'm sure he wore something akin to Fruit-o-the-looms just like the rest of us. Thomas Jefferson was a revolutionary after all, and so was Kanbun. Would they have wanted our brain fixed on "the old ways?" It's very contrary to what these gentlemen espoused.

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded.

Both quotes from Thomas Jefferson.

- Bill

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:24 pm

In what way is Kempo not "traditional karate"

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:34 am

I was referring to Ed Parkers Kempo.

When I wrote traditional I was referring to kata that did not include waza that were added just for show. ex. high jumping kicks, front/back flips, etc.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:11 pm

That helps...

There's actually quite the cottage industry out there choreographing forms for tournaments. I put one together many, many years ago. Nestor Folta did, and did very, very well in open tournaments with it.

I think there are also those in this country who have choreographed forms for training - which is what I think you are talking about. I put one together several decades ago, although it's strictly kicking and generic karate stances. It was designed to complement the Uechi karate kata cirriculum so that a student coming out of U.Va. could step into (name your karate style) and pretty much know what's going on. It served its purpose.

I am probably one of very many here.

- Bill

Karateka · Post by **Karateka** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:39 pm

Should we expect western karate masters (after years of training) to form kata and teach them? Does the Okinawan or Chinese karateka have a corner on the market of effective combat and training?

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:48 am

Not just masters, I think everyone should make their own form (once they have a very good bit of experience). If you HATE doing hip throws, and woud never use it in "real life", why do a form with a hip throw? Put together a form that fits your own body and preferences. I remember seeing a fat kid trying to do a form with a sidekick in it, but he just didn't have the body to perform any kind of side kick at any height. He should have been doing a form with close in techniques. The only reason we practice the same forms over and over is that they generally have good principles and combos, but if you understand the principles, by all means, "make it your own" as my old master used to say. That's my thought on the matter.

Edit: I say a good bit of experience because color belts may not like a technique if it's not natural yet. Learn it all and then throw 90% of it away.

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:51 pm

I suspect there might be thousands of forms and variations of forms being utilized as training tools that were developed by teachers in the West. Our school has 4 that are part of the curriculum and countless others that may appear as part of class and disappear at the end of class.

Just as everybody has artistic solutions to issues and creative needs that must be met. The MA teacher and their students will find ways to train sor specific needs/difficulties and also will express themselves with the principles they are learning.

Some of these doodlings and expressions, combined with years and years of experience and practice may even become the time-tested masterpieces of later generations. Bill, can you imagine the arguments, 50 years from now, about your form and what it REALLY meant and how so-and-so actually learned it at UVa from you and taught them and...