'The Army of God' is on our side

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Akil Todd Harvey
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'The Army of God' is on our side

Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Well Gents,

I do feel so much better now that I know that we have the top General assigned to track down Osama and Sadman and he speaks publicly of 'the army of God'

I sleep so much better now knowing that we have some Christian Extremists in high place in the Pentagon to counteract those wackos that the middle East produces (Bin Laden & Sadman, for example)......

It is also of particular note that Daniel Pipes was nominated to the board of the United States Institute of Peace. This body was designed to promote Peace and understanding among Muslims and the United States, quite literally, is devoted to the peaceful resolution of conflict.

So what? Well, Pipes happens to say that "ALL MUSLIMS MUST BE WATCHED", and Pipes sees no room for negotiation, no hope for compromise and no use for diplomacy.

Daniel Pipes says the only path to Middle East peace will come through a total Israeli military victory. So why has President Bush nominated him to the board of the government's leading peace think-tank?

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/ ... 20_01.html
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086844/

LATIMES 10/16/03
By William M. Arkin, William M. Arkin is a military affairs analyst who writes regularly for The Times.
In June of 2002, Jerry Boykin stepped to the pulpit at the First Baptist Church of Broken Arrow, Okla., and described a set of photographs he had taken of Mogadishu, Somalia, from an Army helicopter in 1993.

The photographs were taken shortly after the disastrous "Blackhawk Down" mission had resulted in the death of 18 Americans. When Boykin came home and had them developed, he said, he noticed a strange dark mark over the city. He had an imagery interpreter trained by the military look at the mark. "This is not a blemish on your photograph," the interpreter told him, "This is real."

"Ladies and gentleman, this is your enemy," Boykin said to the congregation as he flashed his pictures on a screen. "It is the principalities of darkness It is a demonic presence in that city that God revealed to me as the enemy."

That's an unusual message for a high-ranking U.S. military official to deliver. But Boykin does it frequently.

This June, for instance, at the pulpit of the Good Shepherd Community Church in Sandy, Ore., he displayed slides of Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and North Korea's Kim Jung Il. "Why do they hate us?" Boykin asked. "The answer to that is because we're a Christian nation We are hated because we are a nation of believers."

Our "spiritual enemy," Boykin continued, "will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus."

Who is Jerry Boykin? He is Army Lt. General William G. "Jerry" Boykin. The day before Boykin appeared at the pulpit in Oregon, the Pentagon announced that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had nominated the general for a third star and named him to a new position as deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence.

In this newly created position, Boykin is not just another Pentagon apparatchik or bureaucratic warrior. He has been charged with reinvigorating Rumsfeld's "High Value Target Plan" to track down Bin Laden, Hussein, Mullah Omar and other leaders in the terrorism world.

But Gen. Boykin's appointment to a high position in the administration is a frightening blunder at a time when there is widespread acknowledgment that the position of the United States in the Islamic world has never been worse.

A monthlong journalistic investigation of Boykin reveals a 30-year veteran whose classified resumé reads like a history of special operations and counter-terrorism. From the failed Iranian hostage rescue attempt in 1980 to invasions in Grenada and Panama, to the hunt for drug lord Pablo Escobar in Colombia, to Somalia and various locales in the Middle East, Boykin has been there. He also was an advisor to Atty. Gen. Janet Reno during Waco.

He has risen in the ranks, starting out as one of the first Delta Force commandos and going on to head the top-secret Joint Special Operations Command. He has served in the Central Intelligence Agency and, most recently, he commanded Army Special Forces before being brought into the Rumsfeld leadership team.

But Boykin is also an intolerant extremist who has spoken openly about how his belief in Christianity has trumped Muslims and other non-Christians in battle.

He has described himself as a warrior in the kingdom of God and invited others to join with him in fighting for the United States through repentance, prayer and the exercise of faith in God.

He has praised the leadership of President Bush, whom he extolled as "a man who prays in the Oval Office." "George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States," Boykin told an Oregon congregation. "He was appointed by God."

All Americans, including those in uniform, are entitled to their views. But when Boykin publicly spews this intolerant message while wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army, he strongly suggests that this is an official and sanctioned view — and that the U.S. Army is indeed a Christian army.

But that's only part of the problem. Boykin is also in a senior Pentagon policymaking position, and it's a serious mistake to allow a man who believes in a Christian "jihad" to hold such a job.

For one thing, Boykin has made it clear that he takes his orders not from his Army superiors but from God — which is a worrisome line of command. For another, it is both imprudent and dangerous to have a senior officer guiding the war on terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan who believes that Islam is an idolatrous, sacrilegious religion against which we are waging a holy war.

And judging by his words, that is what he believes.

In a speech at a church in Daytona, Fla., in January, Boykin told the following story:

"There was a man in Mogadishu named Osman Atto," whom Boykin described as a top lieutenant of Mohammed Farah Aidid.

When Boykin's Delta Force commandos went after Atto, they missed him by seconds, he said. "He went on CNN and he laughed at us, and he said, 'They'll never get me because Allah will protect me. Allah will protect me.'

"Well, you know what?" Boykin continued. "I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol." Atto later was captured.

Other countries, Boykin said last year, "have lost their morals, lost their values. But America is still a Christian nation."

The general has said he has no doubt that our side is the side of the true God. He says he attends prayer services five times a week.

In Iraq, he told the Oregon congregation, special operations forces were victorious precisely because of their faith in God. "Ladies and gentlemen I want to impress upon you that the battle that we're in is a spiritual battle," he said . "Satan wants to destroy this nation, he wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants to destroy us as a Christian army."

Since 9/11, the war against terrorism has become almost exclusively a special operations war, melding military and CIA paramilitary and covert activities with finer and finer grained integrated intelligence information. Hence, the creation of Boykin's new job as deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence.

The task facing Boykin, Rumsfeld insiders say, is to break down the wall between different intelligence collectors and agencies and quickly get the best information and analysis for American forces in the field.

But even as he begins his new duties, Boykin is still publicly preaching.

As late as Sept. 27, he was in Vero Beach, Fla., speaking on behalf of Visitation House Ministries.

In describing the war against terrorism, President Bush frequently says it "is not a war against Islam." In his National Security Strategy, Bush declared that "the war on terrorism is not a clash of civilizations." Yet many in the Islamic world see the U.S. as waging a cultural and religious war against them. In fact, the White House's own Advisory Group on Public Diplomacy for the Arab and Muslim World reported this month that since 9/11, "hostility toward America has reached shocking levels."

"Arabs and Muslims respond in anger to what they perceive as U.S. denigration of their societies and cultures," the report stated.

The task for the U.S., the report said, is to wage "a major struggle to expand the zone of tolerance and marginalize extremists."

Appointing Jerry Boykin, with his visions of holy war in the Islamic world, to a top position in the United States military is no way to marginalize extremism.
When I read that Daniel Pipes had been nominated to the board of the United States Institute of Peace (a federally funded body whose members are proposed by the president and confirmed by the Senate), my first reaction was one of bafflement. Why did Pipes want the nomination? After all, USIP, a somewhat mild organization, is devoted to the peaceful resolution of conflict. For Pipes, this notion is a contradiction in terms.

I am not myself a pacifist, and I believe that Islamic nihilism has to be combated with every weapon, intellectual and moral as well as military, which we possess or can acquire. But that is a position shared by a very wide spectrum of people. Pipes, however, uses this consensus to take a position somewhat to the right of Ariel Sharon, concerning a matter (the Israel-Palestine dispute) that actually can be settled by negotiation. And he employs the fears and insecurities created by Islamic extremism to slander or misrepresent those who disagree with him.

This makes him a poor if not useless ally in the wider battle. Let me give two illustrations from personal experience. One of the most frontal challenges from Islamic theocracy came in February 1989, when the Ayatollah Khomeini pronounced a sentence of death upon Salman Rushdie. There then followed a long campaign by writers and scholars and diplomats, culminating in September 1998 in a formal repudiation of the fatwa by the Iranian regime. Good cause for celebration, one might think. But not to Pipes, who weighed in with a sour, sophomoric article arguing that nothing whatsoever had changed and that the Iranian authorities were as committed to Rushdie's elimination as ever. His "sources" were a few clips from the Iranian press and a few stray statements from extremists. That was five years ago. Today, Salman Rushdie lives in New York without body guards and travels freely, and there are leading Shiite voices raised in Iran in favor of the coalition's successful demolition of the Iraqi Baath Party. To put it bluntly, I suspect that Pipes is so consumed by dislike that he will not recognize good news from the Islamic world even when it arrives. And this makes him dangerous and unreliable.

Then, I heard recently, Pipes has maintained that professor Edward Said of Columbia University is not really a Palestinian and never lost his family home in Jerusalem in the fighting of 1947-48. I have my own disagreements with Said, but this is a much-discredited libel that undermines the credibility of anybody circulating it. Professor Said is deservedly respected for his long advocacy of mutual recognition between Israelis and Palestinians; yet, once again, Pipes spits and curses at anything short of his own highly emotional agenda. In the February 2003 issue of Commentary magazine, he wrote an attack on the "road map" proposals, which included the words "the so-called Palestinian refugees," and which by other crude tricks of language insinuated that there had been no Palestinian dispossession in the first place. In which case, there is obviously nothing to negotiate about, is there? It's one thing to argue, as many Palestinians are prepared to do, that not every refugee can expect "the right of return." It's quite another to deny history and to assert that there is no refugee problem to begin with.

By coincidence, that same issue of Commentary contained several columns of letters from aggrieved scholars, complaining at the way in which Pipes had misrepresented their work. Pipes himself was forced to concede grudgingly that he had been in error when he described professor John Kelsay of Princeton and professor James Turner Johnson of Rutgers as having denied that the term "jihad" had any military meaning. I admire those who admit their mistakes, especially under the pressure of fact. But Pipes hasn't just been engaged in a dispute in print with other academics. He is the founder of Campus Watch, a Web-site crusade that purports to expose heretical or subversive teachers in America. It's not pleasant to think of such an organization being run by somebody who won't, or who can't, read the published work of more distinguished colleagues.

On more than one occasion, Pipes has called for the extension of Israel's already ruthless policy of collective punishment, arguing that leveling Palestinian villages is justifiable if attacks are launched from among their inhabitants. It seems to me from observing his style that he came to this conclusion with rather more relish than regret. And, invited recently to comment on the wartime internment of the Japanese—as a comparison case to his own call for the profiling and surveillance of Muslim and Arab-Americans—he declined on the grounds that he didn't know enough about the subject. One isn't necessarily obliged to know the history of discrimination as it has been applied to American security policy—unless, that is, one is proposing a new form of it. To be uninformed at that point is to disqualify oneself, as the Senate should disqualify Pipes.

The board of USIP already contains enough people to make sure that the hawkish viewpoint does not go unrepresented. It includes Douglas Feith, undersecretary of defense, and Harriet Zimmerman of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. The objection to Pipes is not, in any case, strictly a political one. It is an objection to a person who confuses scholarship with propaganda and who pursues petty vendettas with scant regard for objectivity.
Hope you all are well....

ATH
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Akil

I share your disgust. Complain loud. Complain often.

It is poetic justice to fight horror with horror. Furthermore, evidence backs the use of faith in developing mindset before battle. But to become the blind demon you despise is the epitome of human weakness.

Bush is no Thomas Jefferson. If he were, that kind of crap wouldn't be allowed.

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Post by Thaws »

Excellent commentary. These christian extremist(American taliban) pander to the lowest most common denomonator of the American public, its complete ignorance of Americas' founding principles, ethnocentric observance of everything outside of our borders, and a manipulative, convenient, interpretation of christianity. This Boykin is a religious nazi.
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

No question that Bush and his cronies, both civilian and military, don't have the sense that God gave statesmen in the past. And people wonder why I don't like him....

But where is the worldwide Muslim condemnation of Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad comments that ''Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them"?

And where is the statement from US Muslim groups, denouncing the heckling Sen. Joe Lieberman recieved today when he gave a speech at the Arab American Institute leadership conference?

Once and for all, Muslims the world over need to get away from the phobia that all the world's problems can be traced back to the Jews. The broken record is getting stale.

Gene
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Post by RACastanet »

Great response Gene!

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Post by benzocaine »

Hopefully people will someday understand the meaning of seperation of church and state.
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Gene,

Heckling? I am supposed to condemn heckling. Should I condemn the violent forms of heckling or just all heckling?

No, Gene, although you and I do agree on a lot of things, this is not one of them.

If I went before a Jewish group trying to justify the most extreme forms of violence that the Palestinians have perpetrated (suicide bombers-or homicide bombers, if you like that term better), I would expect to be heckled (and put on JDL's list of people to watch).

Let Lieberman justify the "security wall" to the JDL and he will get all the appaluse he needs. By the by, the head of the JDL in my region was planning to blow up the mosque I used to go to (and the republican senator from San Diego who financially supported the recall of our govenor). But none of the newspaper or other forms of western media outlets dared equate zionism or Judaism with violence as is so regularly done with Muslims.

Speaking of Muslim Viloence, when the prime minister of Malaysia says that they should use NON-VIOLOENT means to counteract the fact that Jews have inordinate power compared to their numbers, we all immediately say how violent the Muslims are. Perhaps I would have condemned the Prime minister more harshly had he suggested use of violence as the suggested means of altering the perceived problem of Jewish control.

Gene, I do agree with you here,
Once and for all, Muslims the world over need to get away from the phobia that all the world's problems can be traced back to the Jews. The broken record is getting stale.
It is one thing to say that Jews possess political and economic power that extends beyond their numbers, that in and of itself does not mean that these jewish folks all use their influence for bad purposes. My guess is that there is no way to say that Jewish people possess more political and economic control than their number represent without being labeled an anti-semite. That does not justify the PM's statements, nor does it attempt to, but similarly, if all the world's moderate Muslims condemned the PM's statements, would the western media even hear what we said, much less print it? Unfrickenlikely.......

I have had considerable experience with Jewish people and found many, if not most of them are using their influence for good purposes (bettering their communities, for example). For that reason, I refuse to condemn all jewish people of anything, because I am well aware that any blanket statements about any group, is wrong and is rarely done for no purpose whatsoever and is usuually done to paint a negative stereotype pof the group that is percieved as the enemy of the other.

On the other hand, I used to attend this little non-sectarian, Jewish school that goes by the name Brandeis. Back in the day, they used to tell a little lie about the world's religions in which they would say that there were three chapels (dont mess with me over spelling, I dont care about that right now) to represent the three monotheistic religions of the world which were Catholicism, Protestantism and Judaism. Islam? Left out. Must be a fiment of my imagination. Or maybe Not montheistic (not what I have read). Islam is Not of the world. Not enough adherents. What is the reason that Brandeis university chose to tell this lie? I am still trying to figure it out........They still send me lots of little postcards asking me to send them money......to help them lie about my religion (if even a penny of my money went toweards that lie, it is too much).

With well over one billion Muslims in the world, I would hardly expect them to all be nice and wonderful people. I expect that some of them will be wackos and I will speak out against them. But, do not be surprised if some moderate Muslims do speak out agaisnt this or that speaker and the Western press does not mention such condemnation since it does not fit their preconceiveed and highly convenient stereotypes of Muslims. I hope I do not need to remind you folks that the predominant stereotype of Muslims in the world is that we are violent and that our religion encourages violence.

If we were to encourage non-violence, would they be happy? I doubt it. PM Mohammad encouraged non-violent means of achieving an end and they roundly ignored it.

It is fair to condemn PM Mohammad for suggesting that their is a world Jewish conspircacy and I will do so here. Bad PM. I do wonder if he would ever be given ANY credit for encouraging non-violent means of accomplishing a goal.

Not that other ideas are not allowed on this thread, I dont want to shut down the debate, but my main purpose was to point out that while all religions have wackos, it is only Islam that gets the negative press.

No matter how many Jewish or Christian wackos we find, the western media will never equate the religion with their actions. Similarly, no matter how many hundreds of millions of Muslims do NOT perpetrate acts of violence, the western media will still, via direct statements or by way of implication and innuendo, equate Islam to violence.

1,2,3 Islam is not your enemy

1,2,3 Jewish people are not my enemy

One of the wonderful things that we must laude Western civilization for is the fact that we have always had a useful and convenient enemy that we have for every to be afraid of.......

Witches, burn em.......very convenient thing to worry about for quite a long time.

Gays, they were a useful group to stereotype and despise for quite a long time. Some still despise this group, more and more this is done is private as doing so has become passe'.

Blacks (African Americans) Slavery, post slavery they werent treated much better. Very useful that continent of Africa. Not only did Western cultures make lots of money off of slave labor (dont bother suggesting reparations as was done with holocaust victims as we dont have anywhere near the sympathy for blacks that we have for Jewish persons), but we got to colonize them, too. Black people are still very scary to many white people and coming out of this recession, it is still harder for blacks to get jobs than whites.

Ethnic groups. you used to always be able make good fun of people's ethnicity, but now you cant. sorry. the poles, irish, germans, italians, mexicans, hatians, etc all became relatively accepted and such humor is no longer acceptable in polite circles (pc police). each one of these groups, upon coming here, suffered great hardships and was accepted eventually.

Physical or mental handicap. you used to be able to make all the jokes in the world about handicapped and those with mantal retardation or other mental abnormalities, but not any more. They have gone mainstream and you are no longer allowed to make such disapraging remarks or tell the endless Helen Kellar jokes.

Jews. This group took a lot of heat over the course of centuries. they were the preferred group to hate if you couldnt agree on one of the other ones. NOTE: it is No longer socially accepatable to stereotype Jewish persons.

Muslims (Moslems-note: never call them what they want to be called. if they ask to be called Muslims, call em anything but that. Make up any name no matter how offensive to them, like mohammadans. That will sure piss em off). This is the one group left that it is still socially acceptable to denigrate so take advantage of it while you can, cuz if history is any guide, you wont be able to do so for long.

It is still socially acceptable to stereotype the Muslims. So do so. You should feel free to continue making all the funny little jokes about Muslims, their religion, the founder of the religion, and any practices of those who profess this religion.

Have a Nice Day, :wink:

ATH
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

No jokes from me here, or anywhere else for that matter, about Islam. Get that straight.

The crux of the problem...

"It is one thing to say that Jews possess political and economic power that extends beyond their numbers"

and

"the fact that Jews have inordinate power compared to their numbers"

Irrational, baseless statements and ones that are unsupported by any real facts (if ones can be found on these highly subjective statements at all). When the non-Jewish non-Muslim world hears this, they throw up their hands in disgust, because it turns a rational argument (that of Jewish-Muslim relations) and drives it fully into the land of the irrational and ignorant. It is my contention that statements such as, " that Jews have inordinate power compared to their numbers", or even have "inordinate power" at all regardless of their numbers, stems only from religious hatred. Such and similar statements have been uttered by Christians regarding Jews, Whites regarding Blacks, Japanese regarding Americans (they all have tails and they'll take your women and children) and any other example of racial or societal intolerance throughout history. These statements were wrong then and they are as wrong now. Understand that.

But to turn any discussion of Islam-Jewish relations into a debate into how "''Jews rule the world" and they have "inordinate power compared to their numbers" coupled with "Jews possess political and economic power that extends beyond their numbers" means the debate will go nowhere if these inaccurate and foolish myths aren't abandoned by the intelligent among us.

Brandeis giving Islam the shaft? I certainly hope you raised your hand in class, and asked why Islam wasn't included on the list of chapels. I feel reasonably confident that you also went to the Department Head to discuss the possibly objectionable part of the day's teachings. And you've sent a postcard back to them, asking them to explain how they teach the world's major religions and only by answering your question in a satisfactory manner will you give them any type of alumni monetary donation? And I have nothing to do with Brandeis, so you're ire might be best directed towards them.

Go Marlins....

Gene
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Thoughts about Zealotry

Post by benzocaine »

Some people don't critally think. They pick a dogma and chant its mantra in reply to any challenge against it. Take fundamentalist christianity for instance. It's dogma states that any one who doesn't believe what they do will go to hell.. and the dogma gets sneaky here :wink: .. if you disagree you are influenced by Satan :twisted: .. so never question what your minister tells you. Very often the minister will endorse a political party.. hence the PTL people and the 700 club. So every so often I have to be assaulted by someone with glazed over eyes's views about government.. whos views I have to wonder about. Did they even second guess once what Rush Limbaaaugh or Gerry Fallwel told them? Probably not. Liberal thought can be the same way.. those evil repulicans!!

I have to wonder if religion is what Karl Marx said.. a way to control the masses.. or an opiate of the masses. Don't get me wrong. I can certainly see benefits from religion. Many a drug addict or prisoner has found Jesus or Allah and have turned their life around. Many people who live in urban combat zones regularly attend church/ mosque (sp?) and are better off for it. It can be a posotive influence on people to have a peer group to set good moral standards for them. That's all great... but don't push it on me. All too often I see blatent hypocricy.. I see Osama Bin Laden order his followers to their deaths while he hides. I've seen it from TV evangelists. I see Jews fighting Musslims.. my God is better than your God.... but it is never the religious leaders who die for their cause. It is for the little guy.. a member of the masses... with glazed eyes from the opiate of mind controlling religion.

I think it is about time the people of the world grow up and think for themselves.. and not blindly follow what their religious leaders say. Yes have your religion.. but RESPECT others peoples way of life. I don't want to spend half a day chanting/ singing/ listening praises to God.. I revere God as I understand him.. walking in the woods or any other way I choose to do so.

PS. This is not directed at any person in particular.. just my feelings on religion.
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Post by IJ »

ATH, I am in total agreement on the Christian Taliban. And the Jewish one. And the Islamic one. I disagree that only the Islamic nuts get press. Where exactly did you hear about our zealot general from anyway? Probably same place I did--the press. That's where I hear about lots of Christian silliness. There is an almost wounded tone when you note Brandeis' slight toward Islamists (is Judaism covered fairly at all Islamic affiliated institutions???) or the slanted press coverage, which isn't as bad as you make it out to be. (please don't be offended by my use of the word wounded, as I'm well aware I have it too when the majority comes after my "people" :) and it's hard not to be wounded when you're under frequent attack) There's a fair amount of explanation to some of this...

Let's take for a moment (but ONLY for a moment) the idea that Jews have influence beyond their numbers as truth. Wouldn't there be reasons? I mean, more than average, Jewish families promote education and success in their kids. Is there a reason to fault them for this? Meanwhile there's a certain resistance in some Arabic nations to progress. The Taliban, of course, tried to move its subjects back to the stone age (the more strident the fundamentalism, the more they are into this, no? Also evident among Christians, etc). Why the heck wouldn't a bunch of forward thinking intellectuals have more influence than fanatics pushing a medieval philosophy? I am not at all implying that all Islamists are backward, but certainly, a lot of the ones who are obsessed with this Jewish mafia thing ARE, and maybe that's how they're getting this idea. I happen to work at a historically Jewish hospital, and every damned last one of them is smart, funny, polite and easy to work with. On average they're nicer than all the Christians I have to work with, frankly. There are just a smattering of middle-eastern and islamic folk there as well, and for the record, they're just as nice and smart as the Jews.

And don't some Islamists have influence beyond their numbers? What about those Kuwaitis, for example? I don't see some dirt poor oil poor tiny African or Hindu nation summoning the might of the American military when they're invaded... and we all know if Kuwait was a Jewish state, the world would have been rife with commentary about the strings the Jews were pulling. Even more than it is now.

If one is concerned that the press is harsher on the Palestinians than the Jews, for example, maybe it's because (a TINY minority of) Palestinians are randomly blowing up innocent people including children and invoking their God in the act. And what struck me recently is reading that 2/3 of the Palestinians supported the bombings. Hey folks, that's just crazy, although I need to track down my reference for sure. The Jews haven't been model citizens over there by many accounts either, but they seem to be far more conflicted as a group about what to do and view their random killings (in the context of attacking terrorists) as side effects rather than objectives. I understand my impression comes from what's filtered thru the american media and so if it's distorted, I'd be wide open to hearing how.

I'm not saying I'm "for" one side or the other in Israel, and certainly I'm appalled by a lot of the trash culture and heavy handed "diplomacy" my country exports to the middle east and elsewhere. In fact my overall impression of fanatics of any religion killing each other is:

--I wish they could see that dying over their superstitions when there is important work to be done is simply passe and if they can't
--I wish they could settle it with paintball instead, and if they can't
--I wish they would leave the bystanders alone

As someone whose belief system is simply that we should try to make the earth a little better than how we found it, none of this constant bickering makes much sense to me. So instead of those involved in the conflict bickering about the details further, it'd be nice if they could all agree to follow the golden rule, keep their religions within the 4 walls of their homes, and pick up some trash, drive nice, and try not to step on any toes when they go outside. Can people forget how to hate? If not, we're going to have to follow CSNY's advice and teach the children well while we wait for the haters to grow old and die off. While the radio's on we shold listen to "Imagine" again.
Last edited by IJ on Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Gene, Benzo, & Ian (as well as anyone reading, but not posting),

I put the first post up this morning and went about my day, giving folks a chance to respond. Now that I have a chance to read your posts, I need to get some sleep to give your posts the attention that they deserve.

I appreciate your posts. Talking to myself is no fun, or at least little fun, but corresponding with you folks is highly beneficial as I respect your opinions regardless if I agree or not, but more importantly, I appreciate the gentle manner in which you give them, (gentleness shall not to be confused with weakness, but rather a strength).

Until the morrow folks, my naive prayers are still for world peace and understanding among men (and women).

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Post by benzocaine »

Until the morrow folks, my naive prayers are still for world peace and understanding among men (and women).
Akil
Akil, I realise you truly believe in your faith. You must.. especially in these times. As you have stated, muslims are the scapegoat of the year. I have no problem with anyones faith... it's when they try to make it law or incorporate it with government.. that drives me nuts. Power corupts. Keep powerful religious leaders out of polotics... and poloticians keep your religion to yourself! I think your origional post was only to point out how very STUPID it is for the General to drag religion into this whole mess. Equally stupid is our Commander in cheif calling our fight a Crusade.

I don't think your prayers are naive. Whether it is Chi, spirit, or just plain old wishful thinking, good thoughts bring good actions.
cxt
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Post by cxt »

Akil

Just a quick question here.

You mention in your early post that "Brandis lied" about the 3 monotheisic relgions--leaving Islam off the list.

Question is:

A- Did Brandis "lie" as in the whole university, set out to confuse and trick people as to what religions were monotheistic?
Or is it possible that just the teacher you had "lied."

Plus it seems to me he/she also left off acouple of other monothistic religions in additon to Islam.

See it seems to me your characterizing an entire university as having a specific, delibrate, agenda.

Since I work for one I can tell you we can't even agree on what to serve in the cafateria, let alone muster enough across-the-board support for a delibrate "lie" as you put it.

Is it possible that maybe it wasn't a "lie" as much as it was just bad instuction?
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Sorry to be gone so long,

CXT asks fairly,
Is it possible that maybe it wasn't a "lie" as much as it was just bad instuction?
of course, it is possible, many things are. Proving that anything is a lie is a bit harder than merely making the accusation, for example. I, too, had the opportunity to work at a University Univewrsity of Massachusetts at Boston) for well over five years full time and found that, indeed, there are many agendas on any given campus and thus it would be difficult, wouldn't it, to deliberately omit mentioning one monotheistic religion ever so innocently.
Plus it seems to me he/she also left off acouple of other monothistic religions in additon to Islam.
ok, which of the monothesitic faiths that are not simple off shoots of one of the above mentioned did not get mentioned? Calling protestantism and catholicism distinct religions might be kind of a stretch like calling reform judaism and some other more conservative branches of Judaism separate and distinct. Are you prepared to make the assertion that Shia Islam is distinctly (meaning entirely differenyt with no basis of shared or communal understanding) a different religion or merely one of its sects.

By the way CXT, it was not the instructors of the University that gave instruction about the various chapels, but rather the department that handles campus tours. And most historical texts will never refer to Muslims, our preferred name, but refer instead to mohammadans (which most of us find offensive since it is not mohammad to whom we pray, but rather the world's ONE creator-at least in our mono-thesitic faith, we only pray to one) or moors, or anything but what we would prefer to be called.

Gene,

You are so right that it would probably be beneficial to take action rather than to merely be upset or wounded over the situation.
Did Brandis "lie" as in the whole university, set out to confuse and trick people as to what religions were monotheistic?
Hard to tell and even harder to prove as stated above, especially from such a distance. Many types of lies, there are. There are outright lies. There are lies of deliberate omission. and then there are the lies that statistics are useful for.

By the way, it ought not be too difficult to confirm that Brandeis has these three chapels and that they tell visitiors that they represent the world's three monthesitic religions as if there are none other.

More to Come (thanks for the questions CXT)

ATH[/quote]
Seek knowledge from cradle to grave
IJ
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Post by IJ »

ATH, sounds to me like Brandeis is important to you. They weren't fair in their depiction of religion, and that bothered you, and more importantly, it still bothers you. My high school by acts of (later I learned, deliberate) acts of omission made it clear to me they really didn't care what happened to me one way or the other. That bugged me, and during college I went back to ask them to change they way they taught and they simply weren't interested. I'd rather they do things differently (if they aren't by now) but I've kind of lost interest. Brandeis is still bugging you so it must be more important to you than my high school was to me. Sounds then like the thing that would make you happiest would be working to fix it (as has already been suggested).

I agree with you that extremists of any color (such as a president who uses Crusade imagery and views his struggle with terror as something of a holy war or a general fixated on his religious superiority) in charge of our nation is a lot more concerning. If I end up with the option, I'll be voting for Gov. Dean. I suppose if instead I'm choosing between the Demubplican and the republicrat, I'll end up choosing Zoloft.
--Ian
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