Violence

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 5:19 am

Motivation isn't the focus of a statement like "by training in karate they become violent people". This statement implies that someone is not violent when he first starts training but becomes violent because of his training. Such a change can be completely separate from a persons motivation for studying karate.

He or she also says:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

However, is the act of signing up for lessons in harming others an act of violence? I think that it may be. It is a first step, an indication of intent to be violent at some point. It is like laying a gun on your table fully loaded. You intend to use it, otherwise you put it away and never get it out. The decision has already been made: You have plans which will require you to have skills in violence. That in itself, in my opinion, is crossing the line into the world of violence.

Is this motivation? Yes, but the examples given imply you already had violent tendencies when you signed up, not that karate made you become violent. Karate becomes the outlet for violent tendencies, not the cause of them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

You could have chosen tennis and a life free from violence. You chose to learn the enemy's ways and try to defeat them rather than run from them. After all, one does not need karate lessons to learn to run away from people.

Using the vague dictionary definitions provided, actually tennis could be classified as violent. Besides, have you seen the attitudes of some tennis players? Using the definitions the author gives, you could argue that tennis, running, and weightlifting, among many others, are just as violent as karate...and thus, using the author's logic, that by doing them you will become more violent.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The dojo is a place of violence. That is what it is all about. All of the exercise and supposed character building is intended to happen as a result of your study of something that contains violent movements and an element of seriousness and danger.

Absolutely. I agree with this statement in its entirety. But I think this is a return to the social definition of violent and violence that 2Green referred to, rather than the dictionary definitions. After all, using the dictionary definitions bike riding "contains violent movements and an element of seriousness and danger". What does not follow from this, however, is that you automatically become more violent by studying karate, or bike riding.

Bill wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

By nature, karate is training people to be more violent - period.

But using the dictionary definitions of violent and violence, so is just about any other sport, exercise, etc. Karate presumably gives you the ability to do more violence, but whether you actually will be more violent takes more than just karate.

Stryke added:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

then it tweaks a few nerves by saying that this pursuit in understanding makes us violent people , gives us the capacity for violence , we as martial artists must have an unusual attraction to violence lets face it we dwell on it and train for it.

Rather than "this pursuit in understanding makes us violent people, gives us the capacity of violence", I see it as we pursue this understanding and capacity because we are violent people.

I am not trying to defend karate or karate-ka as not being violent. I just disagree with the author's perception that karate inherently makes someone more violent. Only you can make youself more violent and prone to violence, karate is merely the tool you use to express those tendencies. In my opinion we would be far better served to keep that perspective in mind than to blame karate for causing violence...there are already enough people in society doing that.

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 6:27 pm

Maybe desensitized means one becomes less debilitated by violence or the threat of violence.

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ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 7:33 pm

Exactly!

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 7:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
One must be very careful with statements made. Glenn, I know what you mean (and agree with what you mean to say), but technically you may be wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad someone knows what I mean, I'm not so sure I always know what I mean! Intertesting, you're statement is almost word for word what my advisor told me after reading the first draft of my thesis. Must be a professorial thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Sometimes methinks the lady doth protest too much! Whenever that's happening, one must pause and think.

Or she might be playing devil's advocate to try to get people to pause and think.

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 9:59 pm

Comments follow:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by 2Green:
Before this spirals down into a furor of semantic hair-splitting, let me state that most people associate the word "violence" with "harmful aggression" and "violent" with "a tendency toward acts of harmful aggression upon innocents or undefendable victims".
If the author is implying that Karate instills the violence of a falling boulder, or a raging hurricane, or a triggered mousetrap, then I have no problem agreeing.
However, the words "violent" and "violence" in our society's context have strong perjorative implications which are not normally associated with the dictionary definitions which are semantically clinical.
To state that Karate creates violent people is to imply the societal meaning, not the dictionary one.
This is what I respectfully disagree with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2Green has a very definate point with the disparity between the dictionary and colloquial use of the term violent.

Glasheen Sensei also has a point about forcing us to look at our real motivations for studying the MA in the first place and, perhaps to see what those initial motivations have evolved in to as we progressed in our training.

Both ideas are valid and should be examined by each of us.

Are we violent in the colloquial sense? If we are, then we need to grow, learn and understand that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent or that last resort to which a competent man is forced.

Unnecessary violence, IMHO, and unnecessarily violent attitude and behavior is an unacceptable characteristic in a true martial artist.

Necessary violence simply is.

SO, are we, as the original post implied, violent because of our training? By all but the last definition quoted, we are. I fail to see how that is a bad thing, so long as our violent acts are used for the preservation of self, friends, family and country.

It's when someone gets into the fourth definition quoted above, the colloquial definition where violence is a bad, needless, wasteful thing, that we need to be careful.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

david · Post by **david** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:07 am

I don't think MA practice makes us more violent. Rather it provides an opportunity to explore the violence already in us and how we relate to the violence in and prepetuated by others.

I don't believe practice necessarily desensitizes us to violence either. Again, I believe it challenges us to understand how we (re)act in face of it within us and others. Part of understanding is realizing/justifying/moralizing when it's necessary to be violent.

Personally, I have seen/experienced my share of violence. Though not surprised by violence, I still often find myself sadden and horrified at the same time. I almost always wish that the next generation can avoid it. Yet, I know this isn't possible. Today, I heard a community girl was raped right near my workplace... When needed, I can and will make myself go into it... into the heart of darkness.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited March 04, 2002).]

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 5:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PMeyer:
I don't that know martial arts necessarily make a person more violent. What it does do in my opinion is desensitize you to violence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see that happening, but for me it was the opposite. Training raised my awareness about what can really happen in fights and made me less inclined to fight. I was a typical teenage male getting into karate after watching the Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, etc. movies. I went into it with the attitude that I'd like to be able to defeat 100 attackers without breaking a sweat. Plus have you ever noticed how the hero can get beat up half-way through the movie and go straight into a workout or romancing the leading lady while she's tending his injuries. Pretty cool stuff, that's for me! Then I started training and found out that merely blocking can hurt a lot, much less getting hit...rude awakening! And there have been many more rude awakenings over the years since then. So karate training has raised my awareness about what violence can do, but I don't think it desensitized me to it.

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 5:33 am

One must be very careful with statements made. Glenn, I know what you mean (and agree with what you mean to say), but technically you may be wrong.

Politically correct thinking as well as the "baggage" associated with many words in our language confuses the issue greatly. But isn't it about time that WE be honest with OURSELVES on this issue? Consider this:

* WE - as a society - are a violent people.

* We - as a society - live in a violent world. That violence could be anything from the bad guy that jumps out from behind the bushes to intimidation to dealing with the dog that chases you when you go jogging.

* We deal with violence in many other ways, and are not criticized for doing so. We lock our doors at night, and when we leave the house. We warn our kids not to talk to strangers. We call the police (designated violent people) when there is lawlessness. We look people in the eyes to establish our will, and tell people what we will and will not accept in terms of behavior towards us.

I think a few things are important here.

1) Get over all the PC crap. Go see a movie like "There's Something About Mary." Get in the proper mindset. We do not need to be intimidated by any external party into any way of thinking that isn't in our best interest, whether they be pacifists or bad guys.

2) Be precise with language. There are many meanings and shades of meanings when using the words violent and violence. Be specific.

3) Keep an open mind. Sometimes methinks the lady doth protest too much! Whenever that's happening, one must pause and think.

FWIW

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 5:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I don't [know that] martial arts necessarily make[s] a person more violent. What it does do in my opinion is desensitize you to violence.

Is that bad or good? Think about it.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 2:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I don't believe practice necessarily desensitizes us to violence either.

The confusion over "desensitize" sounds a bit like the same semantics we are having with the word "violence."

Again, there are a number of different meanings. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

de-sen-si-tize To render less sensitive or insensitive, as to light or pain.

Think about the difference between the following:

1) To render less sensitive.

2) To render insensitive.

The former seems to imply a functional response. The latter connotes a pejorative. On the one hand, Blauer et al engage in scenario training to teach people how to function in the face of overstimulation (internal) and chaos (external). On the other hand, a society exposed to gratuitous violence (Terminator, Lethal Weapon, Friday the 13th part infinite) is alleged to be prone to gratuitous violence. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

When needed, I can and will make myself go into it... into the heart of darkness.

Here I see the functional meaning of desensitized. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Though not surprised by violence, I still often find myself sadden and horrified at the same time. I almost always wish that the next generation can avoid it.

And there I see that exposure to violence - in this case - has not resulted in the death of a heart.

There lies the difficult precipice that we seek to occupy. That plateau of existence seems at once both amazing and tenuous.

- Bill

david · Post by **david** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:01 am

Okay, Bill, I can accept the finer definitions of the word, desensitize.

Some do become desensitized, in the perjorative description... This, however, rarely comes from MA training. It comes from a life of abuse. It comes from being surrounded and immersed in violence in a day to day manner. To be truly desenitized to violence is to be one without hope that there can be another way. Life for one such as this is brutal and usually short. There is no need to practice. You simply give and take violence until existence ends. If and when you meet one like this, you'll be both scared and saddened. Such person profoundly challenges the notion that life is worth living.

david

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 6:57 pm

I'll say one thing for this thread, in addition to the good article and discussion, it made me look at the definitions for violent and violence. I never knew they were so vague, or that I was such a violent person!

From the DK Illustrated Oxford Dictionary:
Violent
1 involving or using great physical force.
2a intense; vehement; passionate; furious
2b vivid
3 (of death) resulting from external force or from poison
4 involving an unlawful exercise of force

Based on 1 and 2a, getting out of bed every morning is a violent activity for me. Violence is certainly my motivation: "Use great physical force on the alarm." So for me the violence always starts first thing in the morning!

Then there is the drive to work...2a, 2b, and occassionally 1...and I've seen other drivers use 4.

Cooking dinner sometimes turns violent...1, 2a, and 2b...not 3 so far.

And I won't even mention some of the other activities that could be classified as violent using aspects of 2a and 2b!

The heck with karate, pretty much everything I do is making me a more violent person!

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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Cooking dinner sometimes turns violent...not 3 so far.

Add blowfish to your menu. It will make dinner an adventure!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

And I won't even mention some of the other activities that could be classified as violent using aspects of 2a and 2b!

Too bad - there are thousands of bored housewives that pay to read such stories!

- Bill