Violence

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:05 am

"Many people seem surprised when I tell them that by training in karate they become violent people. They usually claim that they are studying karate to perfect their characters, exercise, meet people, or learn "how not to fight." In my opinion, these are all quaint masks for the truth: Karate is not the best exercise, character builder, social life, sport, nor is it a good way to avoid fighting. "

Read more:
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/heresy/violence.html

raulf7 · Post by **raulf7** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:27 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cecil:
"Many people seem surprised when I tell them that by training in karate they become violent people. They usually claim that they are studying karate to perfect their characters, exercise, meet people, or learn "how not to fight." In my opinion, these are all quaint masks for the truth: Karate is not the best exercise, character builder, social life, sport, nor is it a good way to avoid fighting. "
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why are you doing it?

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:18 pm

Think about the issues the Fighting Chickens Guy raises. Agree? Disagree?

I don't see myself running away from the martial arts. However, you do have to admit that he has some good points.

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:25 pm

Cecil,

I have been to the "24fightingchickens" site many times. I like their take on things (though I do not necessarily agree with all of it).

The assessment is correct in my mind.

ANY activity that you enjoy doing and becoming better at can serve all those purposes. No activity is "the best". And make no mistake about it, Karate is about fighting. So many people think they are doing some mystical art that gives them supernatural powers or something.

Some people are good fighters with no training (formal/organized). Some people learn to be good fighters and some can only hope to become better fighters (me). It is the arduous process of this education that is good for you. It is the process of looking at yourself and facing your weaknesses, laboring to lessen them, and learning to accept and work around them.

In this process one may meet people of like mind and interest and make friends and have a social life with them. One may get good exercise and one may find a path that leads to a greater fulfillment in life. But the process is one of learning how to fight; how to do violence effectively and efficiently.

Karate is not for everyone. Neither is bicycling.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:44 pm

I appreciate what the author is trying to do in this article, and he/she raises some very good points, however I still think it is incorrect, in general, to say that:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cecil:
"by training in karate they become violent people" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally I don't think karate causes a person's attitude of violence (i.e., violent tendencies) to increase or decrease, in spite of the claim of many that karate has helped them become less violent and the general perception of the public that studying karate makes a person more violent (both are usually talking about violent actions, not attitudes of violence). I'm less violent now than I was 20 years ago, but I attribute that to age, maturity, and forgetfullness rather than to karate.

For most people I think rather than karate affecting your attitude of violence, your attitude of violence affects your karate. A person's attitude of violence will effect both whether a person takes up karate and how he/she trains in karate. For example I really don't think that a person's ability to graphically visualize pummeling an opponent when practicing kata is going to increase because of karate training...you come to karate with that ability. Likewise, your attitude of violence can influence how well you spar.

Is karate violent? Yes. Does it make you violent or increase (or decrease) your violent tendencies? No.

Of course, there will always be exceptions.

------------------
Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

aiki · Post by **aiki** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:21 am

I started years ago my martial arts training to protect myself. I am very small for a man and after I learned up to blue belt, which was sufficient for protection, I fell in love with the techniques. It became a way to defend myself, and a hobby. To learn new techniques was a challenge. Since then, I have taught many students which as been a pleasure. It's a free country, if youwant to take martial arts lessons, then do so, you are not hurting anyone by doing so. Many styles are just fun to take and it does exercise and condition your body to a certain degree. Bob, 5th degree, black belt. Aikikenjitsu

Read more://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/her ... lence.html]http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shoto ... lence.html[/URL] [/B][/QUOTE]

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 2:27 am

Having read the article, I can say it would take me a few good solid hours to sit down with the printed version, which I just might do, and point out all the logic-holes in it.
It has the tone of a hypotheses or a debating paper.
However, proof is in reality; and one need only look around, read the paper or watch the news to see where violence really comes from. It is not from trained martial artists as even a casual perusal of the day's news will reveal.
Nothing infuriates me more than yet another story of a person attacked and injured, or worse, simply because they could not defend themselves.
Lastly, simply take a look at the tone of the posts you find on these forums: most posters are trained to some degree, but the words which come to my mind are "analytical","challenging", "critical", "sharing", "intellectual", "reasonable", etc.
I don't think the word "violent" really fits.
In fact if I had to be locked in a stalled elevator, I'd be very comfortable with just about anyone I've "met" on this Karate site.
Hope I'm not speaking out of line on anyones' behalf.

Uechij · Post by **Uechij** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 3:04 am

Quote: "For most people I think rather than karate affecting your attitude of violence, your attitude of violence affects your karate."

Excellent! Gaining strength by lifting weights doesn't mean I will use it to hurt the weak, if I did, then that violent attitude is what motivated me in the first place, not the lifting of weights.

2Green, I agree. You go brother!

[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited February 25, 2002).]

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:04 pm

"For most people I think rather than karate affecting your attitude of violence, your attitude of violence affects your karate"

Ok, how?

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by 2Green:
Having read the article, I can say it would take me a few good solid hours to sit down with the printed version, which I just might do, and point out all the logic-holes in it.
It has the tone of a hypotheses or a debating paper.
However, proof is in reality; and one need only look around, read the paper or watch the news to see where violence really comes from. It is not from trained martial artists as even a casual perusal of the day's news will reveal.
Nothing infuriates me more than yet another story of a person attacked and injured, or worse, simply because they could not defend themselves.
Lastly, simply take a look at the tone of the posts you find on these forums: most posters are trained to some degree, but the words which come to my mind are "analytical","challenging", "critical", "sharing", "intellectual", "reasonable", etc.
I don't think the word "violent" really fits.
In fact if I had to be locked in a stalled elevator, I'd be very comfortable with just about anyone I've "met" on this Karate site.
Hope I'm not speaking out of line on anyones' behalf.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point on the purveyors of violence NOT generally being martial artists, 2Green-sama.

One of the ongoing myths that I have run into over the decades that I have been involved inthe MA is that of the "violent black belt killer" type person.

I have yet to meet one.

I have met a lot of people who, after a couple of classes, who have learned a couple of fancy kicks, think they can take on the world and go trolling for fights.

But these are not martial artists - they are dillitants, wannabes, who bought into the whole kung-fu movie thing and are eager to "show everyone" what badassets they are.

Any serious martial artist that I have ever met has at least not been the kind to go out looking to get into a fight just to get into a fight.

True, some take jobs where violence is probable (bouncers, correctional officers, LEOs, etc.), but to actively seek violence doesn't seem to be in the mix.

I read a fair bit - follow a number of newsgroups and newsfeeds and it is rarely, if ever mentioned that a perp in a violent situation is a martial artist.

Maybe our debating brother who wrote the article will be kind enough to share with us where he got his information (in more detail) and how he built this theory.

I hope so. A good debate is much more fun than a fistfight, any day. Fewer bruises, broken bones and knocked out teeth and more mental exercise.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 4:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cecil:
"For most people I think rather than karate affecting your attitude of violence, your attitude of violence affects your karate"

Ok, how? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How what? How does attitude of violence affect your karate? I elaborated a bit on my ideas about this in my original post above that contained this quote, did you see those comments yet?

------------------
Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited March 01, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:25 pm

I think people are missing the point of this wonderful article.

Take the definition of violence... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Main Entry: vi·o·lent
1 : marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity <a violent attack>
2 a : notably furious or vehement <a violent denunciation> b : EXTREME, INTENSE <violent pain> <violent colors>
3 : caused by force : not natural <a violent death>
4 a : emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control <a mental patient becoming violent> b : prone to commit acts of violence <violent prison inmates>
- vi·o·lent·ly adverb<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> By nature, karate is training people to be more violent - period. The author does state <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So which definition are we using here? Sorting this out is pretty important, because when people protest that they are not violent, they usually mean that they are not prone to commit acts of violence.

Fine. This is what most people are thinking of and being defensive about. Well consider this quote. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...Some have argued that [violence] is not why they began training. That's obviously false, since they could have chosen superior activities which are much more fulfilling than karate to accomplish their other goals.

Exercise is better accomplished through running and weightlifting. Karate is primarily an anaerobic activity without resistance training. Try tennis. Try something else that burns more fat, damages fewer joints, results in fewer bruises, and does not involve getting swept to the floor.

There are better organized sports with better competition than karate which are much more objective in their refereeing. Karate makes a terrible sport. The judging is atrocious. The competitions are boring to watch, and they are even more boring to participate in.

There's only one reason to choose karate, really, and that reason is because karate offers these things coupled with skills in violence, and that violence gives us security.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This gentleman is just getting the martial arts practitioner to be honest with him/herself. He is attempting to get the student to address issues about when he/she will be violent with another ("use" the karate). He is attempting to warn instructors about advising when a person should or should not use violence - lest they be dragged into court after a student has an altercation, or gets hurt because they don't.

Drop the defenses, and read the article. Be honest with yourself. Know yourself, what you are doing, and why you are doing it. That's not an unreasonable request.

- Bill

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 4:14 am

Before this spirals down into a furor of semantic hair-splitting, let me state that most people associate the word "violence" with "harmful aggression" and "violent" with "a tendency toward acts of harmful aggression upon innocents or undefendable victims".
If the author is implying that Karate instills the violence of a falling boulder, or a raging hurricane, or a triggered mousetrap, then I have no problem agreeing.
However, the words "violent" and "violence" in our society's context have strong perjorative implications which are not normally associated with the dictionary definitions which are semantically clinical.
To state that Karate creates violent people is to imply the societal meaning, not the dictionary one.
This is what I respectfully disagree with.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 4:31 am

I have to agree with Sensei Glasheen on this one ,I think this article is great all it does is challenge us to deal with or motivations honestly .

it states the commen reasons for people to give for why they do the martial arts intitially ...

excercise, sport , self defence etc

and also that there are far more effective and easy ways to obtain these goals .

then it tweaks a few nerves by saying that this pursuit in understanding makes us violent people , gives us the capacity for violence , we as martial artists must have an unusual attraction to violence lets face it we dwell on it and train for it .

The resentment and offence some show to the article to me shows once again a cultural indoctranation to political correctness , violence is wrong full stop ?, well no it isnt , If used to defend your life it isnt , used to protect others it isnt , dont be afraid of being capable of violence , and be honest with wanting to be able to be able to be violent , theres nothing wrong with it .

PMeyer · Post by **PMeyer** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 4:02 am

I don't that know martial arts necessarily make a person more violent. What it does do in my opinion is desensitize you to violence.

[This message has been edited by PMeyer (edited March 02, 2002).]