Stretching??????

[Bone]

Being in a traditioanl martial art I ahve often heard and seen that many of us do not becoem as limber as soem of our higher kicking contemporaries, not all but a good portion, due probably to the fact that we do not stress head kicks without first shin kicking them to the ground first-what I like to call the Okinawian head kick!

Well I have been working on my flexability for the last 6 months and hav emade little progress. I have just started this past weekend, the Stretching Scientifically method of Tom Kurtz. This is the ad in Black Belt & other MA mags that the guy is doing the splits on two chairs with a girl sititng on his outstreched legs. The book is very informative, but also written at a very high level and the video is good with showing more routines but still a little confusing-I need to go back over them both and take some more notes.

My question finnaly being: Has anyone on here tried this method? What were your results? Or have you tried another program and had a lot of sucess with it?

I have Dan Ranking and can kick to the head of someone my hight-rughly 6 foot tall, but I would like to have "pretty kicks" and be able to do the front and side splits, HELP >>>>ANYONE?

[Stryke]

Ive got the book , and found it interesting , It didnt provide incredible results but did more importantly chnage many misconceptions about flexibility , Im a firm beleiver now in Dynamic flexibility versus static flexibility , I altered my (and my clubs) warmups and have seen improvement .

I cant do the splits now but did get to that stage , i just dont feel its worth the effort to maintain , it`s a different kind of flexibility from whats needed for fighting , but I can do them now and then when doing the right training , but only as a by product and not a goal .

the best stretches I learnt were from a dancer , I learnt more from talking to her than all the books and routines I`ve ever come across , speciffically how to stretch opposing muscle groups correctly , how to stretch hard and safe , If you know any nimble young dancers it`s not a bad way to spend some time

But flexibility is just one part of the regimin I do , flexibility has lots to do with strength , and muscle control , and programming that stretch reflex , its hard to work on one specifically and not the other , and it becomes a balancing act and trade off .

hmm its late and I`m not sure any of that made sense , training the body unfortunately is an art as much as a science , one routine doesnt fit all , try expirement and most of all feel what your responding too .

[TSDguy]

http://www.neokarate.net/combastics/str ... g_toc.html

Dynamic stretching seems to be the way to go. I don't "stretch" but can whip a head kick off 24/7 without thinking about it.

[RACastanet]

Check out this link on stretching by Brad Appleton, a software designer/dancer/martial artist. He explains PNF and CRAC stretching better than anyone. And it works. I'd give his method a nod over Kurtz or any one else.

http://www.cmcrossroads.com/bradapp/doc ... g_toc.html

Rich

[Deep Sea]

Appleton has been around a long time, eh Rich? I remember that once there were a number of websites that copied his material and advertised it as their own.

Stryke. I found that most dancers were women [or kids] and both seem to have natural stretching capabilities. Probably much to do with little or no leg muscles else it's something in their jeans, er genes.


Hey Bone. I once had close to splits, not quite. I may have something to offer

can kick to the head of someone my hight-rughly 6 foot tall, but I would like to have "pretty kicks" and be able to do the front and side splits,

Several messages in your paragraph. Even though someone can kick high, the power most likely will not be there unless you practice power kicks. There are many ways to get em up strongly, but several methods I used were 1) Lots and lots of bag kicks. Slowly the height inches up and slowly the power develops all at the same time. 2)One thing I never liked, but when I did kickboxing for a half-year once, we endured forced stretching where one sits with his back against the wall and one person on each leg forces them back -- and holds for minutes -- until eventually the feet touch the wall. Why no one ever had pulled muscles I don't know but it was painful. 3) I got and used a stretch machine after that, the 35 dollar variety but they're not too good. From what I learned in kickboxing school I developed a neat stretch tool that brought me to the point of almost a crotch-touching position. I used a block and tackle arrangement tying one end to the rear legs of the couch and sat on the floor while watching TV. This forced stretch proved to be the key for me and was able to safely manage my own pain unlike that in kickboxing. If one stretches his leg muscles and holds it in one position for an extended period of time just taking up the slack on the lines in the block-and-tackle arrangement when the leg muscles loosen up and move back further, results sometimes seem to happen on an almost daily basis. And then 4) I used to lay on my back with my butt against the wall and my feet outstretched on the wall as if
I was sitting on the wall. Spread the legs apart and read a book while gravity does the work. 5) There's an old Uechi favorite using two persons as well. One with his back against the wall getting stretched while the parner applying the stretch to the specific kick. That one works as well.

Those are good for splits. But if you want higher and more powerful kicks, you've just got to kick a lot.

And there are a lot of other methods to get and keep significant high kicks, but you wanted to split and the above worked for me after I thought I could never get a decent split.

And for a surprise stretch to get high kicks, one needs to stretch the QUADS, which almost no one ever does to any kind of extent. Everyone seems to forget how important their supporting leg is and focuses only on the kicking leg -- dumb!

[CJG]

Hi Bone,

I've posted a few light-hearted things recently, but stretching is something I take very seriously. In addition to high-kicking, flexibility seems to help when an opponent knocks you one way and you can 'absorb' the forced directional change while continuing to counter.

Allen, thanks for the great ideas. But why you said

[quote="Deep Sea"] Stryke. I found that most dancers were women [or kids] and both seem to have natural stretching capabilities. Probably much to do with little or no leg muscles else it's something in their jeans, er genes. [end quote]

I'll never know. Which dancer's legs were you looking at? Most serious dancers are using their legs the entire day - hours on end. Although aggressive, destructive kicking is not their goal, I wouldn't make one mad They bring their muscles through a much greater range of activity, beginning with slow, static stretching, then to controlled medium paced movements, on to faster more strenuous movements including jumps, leaps, etc. Without both strength and flexibility they cannot perform the movements. This in itself weeds students out.

Personal experience and things I've read indicate the key is stretching every day for a solid chunk of time to 'reset' the stretch reflex (stretched muscle begins contracting) to a higher level. Hold each stretch for 3-5 minutes if you want to increase flexibility and RELAX. I have trouble reaching stretch points when I'm stressed that normally aren't a problem. Stretch to the point of tension, not pain. When you feel comfortable, push farther into it and hold for at least another 2 minutes. So maybe at first spend some time with a personal trainer (or dancer) who can show you options. If the person is knowledgable they'll help you with positions to start with that will lead to the ones you want, if you do it 5-6 days/wk. I'm not familiar with these systems but muscle fibers are muscle fibers the world over and unless you spend time and tension with them it may not work. Be patient, find some good music and enjoy the journey

[Brian Barry]

Well if you want to work down to a split, this may or may not be of help.
I am 19 and have been able to do a right front split for a couple years and a left front split for about half a year. Not quite to a side split yet. I tell you this so you know that I am still young and for people who are older it may take significantly more work to increase a stretch. However, I started as somebody who was very inflexible, quite a bit below average. Over these last few years, that has changed significantly.
How do I stretch? Well, it is nothing fancy. I hardly stretch at all before a workout. Probably less than a minute. I can do this partially because my flexibility is generally good enough so that I don't have to worry about being stretched out of my range while working out. If you are not overly flexible yet, do stretch beforehand, but realize that this is not the stretching that will help you increase your overall flexibility. It is just a precaution against injury.
I work all the drills or exercises that I am planning on doing, warming my body up significantly. Once it is warm, my muscles are at their most elastic state. Then I do simple stretches, usually without any aid. To work down to a split, I would keep my rear leg totally straight and keep straightening my front leg as much as I could until one day it was totally straight as well and I was in a split. Once I started working on it like this, investing a few minutes any time I was warm, it was a matter of a couple months before I was doing a right front split.

I write this just to tell you that, at least for some people, flexibility can be gained without anything too special. Just stretch yourself when your muscles are warm, and do it regularly. All I know is that it worked for me.

[Deep Sea]

I'll never know. Which dancer's legs were you looking at?

The pretty ones. Guaranteed some , maybe most, professional dancers have strong legs. I saw a pair once that were like tree-trucks. However, That does not necessarily translate into kicking power. However, CJG, I’m not going to stand in front of one to prove a point. But by that statement I was specifically meaning that women in general, not necessarily dancers, have natural stretching abilities that far outshadow man’s. I had to work years to develop whatever stretch I had while these women in the school[s] just did it. But most of them, although they could touch your nose with their big toe, had no delivery strength.

Personal experience and things I've read indicate the key is stretching every day for a solid chunk of time to 'reset' the stretch reflex

I, for one, used to stretch every day. I’d hold each stretch into a discomfort range for a timed minute, go to the next leg, and repeat the cycle a second time. That routine took a little over a half hour to do all the stretches I wanted. The couch stretch and the stretch time in a karate class was extra.

I’d go through phases, especially in the winter when the muscles are cod and the blood is thicker, where I’d use a blow-dryer to warm the muscles before and DURING stretch to get a scoatch more out of the stretch with less tear.

There is another school of thought that subscribes to the paradigm that one should stretch every other day rather than every day in order to give the damaged tissue time to heal. When I did that I found that the scarred tissue would actually inhibit stretch advancement whereas on consecutive days when
I noticed a particular soreness in my legs from stretching I would go easier on those days but still work the muscles.

When I did long-distance running, which predated my karate, [again daily and recorded a consecutive 365 days once]I never stretched. In those days we pioneered the running habits of tday and learned the hard way what to do and what not to do. As a result, I had very little stretch although my thighs were like oak and the size of oak trees and my calves were enormous. That strength never translated into kicking power though.

But when doing it daily, the body signals a need to take a day or two off once in a while, which figuring it wise to follow mother nature’s hints I did – and it was the right thing,

My meds are kicking in now and my muscles from head to toe are getting pliable and weak and I‘m starting to get sloppy and rockl off my chair so it’s time to sign off for the night

[Bill Glasheen]

Good comments here. I'd like to reinforce a few, and make some additional remarks.

Brian Barry wrote...

I hardly stretch at all before a workout. Probably less than a minute. ... I work all the drills or exercises that I am planning on doing, warming my body up significantly. Once it is warm, my muscles are at their most elastic state. Then I do simple stretches, usually without any aid.

Over the past few years, I have been working very hard to undo all the bad teaching I and my seniors have inflicted on our students. At times, our progress in multiple venues has been in spite of our best efforts, and not because of them.

The biggest mistake many people make is stretching out cold. Rather than prevent injury, you are more likely to cause it. Rather than progress, you very well may be setting yourself back or engaging in countless hours of unproductive activity.

A simple thing to remember about stretching is the 3 T's: Tension, Temperature, and Time. Without first warming the muscles up, your stretching is doing little good. Your progress will be slower, your efforts more painful, your risk of injury higher, and your strength quite possibly compromised in the process.

On the other hand, warming up with general low-range-of-motion actitivy and then working into the stretching is a good idea. I sometimes make very good use of my time by stretching a muscle group I'm working on inbetween the weight training sets for that muscle. You'd be surprised at the synergy you develop in the whole strength-flexibility equation, and the ease with which you can gain in both directions.

Rich wrote

Check out this link on stretching by Brad Appleton

Best in the business, and free. Brad turns voodoo into science. Those that started Uechi in the sixties and seventies will look in horror at what was done in the past. And it still continues to some extent in the junbi undo. A number of those exercises - particularly the ballistic stretching ones - should be banished!

Now to clarify an important point.

Someone else wrote

I found that most dancers were women (or kids) and both seem to have natural stretching capabilities. Probably much to do with little or no leg muscles else it's something in their jeans, er genes.

While this may seem to be true, the literature and proper training will show it to be a falicy in general. For example, doing squats (which make the quads thicker) will increase the range of motion of one's quads. That's an evidence-based fact.

Some time I hope you all get a chance to meet some really well-trained athletes. I started with Bruce Hirabayashi as a wet-behind-the-ears kid, and trained him well. He was a great student. He started with very little strength, and average flexibility. Now he squats over 400 pounds, and he can go to sleep in a lateral splits. It's maddening - and inspiring - to see this. And you do not want to face someone that has whole body flexibility, balanced strength, and a handle on how to generate power. That's the three-legged stool that is the key to your success in most athletic activities before any strategy and technique is taught.

On a final note... Folks need to understand that our range of motion - and lack thereof - is functional. It's there to protect us from injury and offer us some degree of stability.

This is actually characterized by a number of different aspects. First, our muscles have a passive range of motion based on the lengths and numbers of all the sarcomeres (fundamental contraction unit) in our muscle fibers. You can change this structure with consistent and proper training. Then there is the active range of motion. That is separated into static and dynamic stretch reflex. The static stretch reflex is what comes into play when doing slow, static stretching. The force of the neurological input is proportional to the length (L) of the muscle. Then there is the dynamic stretch reflex, which comes into play during rapid movement. The force of the neurological input is proportional to the lengthening (dL/dt) of the muscle.

In general, we seek to quiet the static stretch reflex so we can change the physical, static characteristics of the muscle. We often however wish to train and enhance the dynamic stretch reflex for power development.

Store those thoughts... They are helpful in understanding what works, when, and how.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Oh, almost forgot...

Allen wrote:

There is another school of thought that subscribes to the paradigm that one should stretch every other day rather than every day in order to give the damaged tissue time to heal. When I did that I found that the scarred tissue would actually inhibit stretch advancement whereas on consecutive days when
I noticed a particular soreness in my legs from stretching I would go easier on those days but still work the muscles.

Actually I see truth in both sides here; both are correct. You do indeed want a day inbetween intense sessions to allow the body to heal and build/rebuild. But that is best accomplished via a method sometimes described as "active rest." Basically good healing and building cannot happen without proper circulation. So a light workout between the big ones is the best way to increase the flow of O2 and nutrients to tissue, and a way to remove toxins and waste.

- Bill

[Halford]

I have read Tom Kurz's articles that usually appear in TAE KWON DO TIMES and have found them challenging to some extent in that they make use of weights,etc. Yes, you can learn a lot from acrobats, gymnasts, ice-skaters, track and field athletes, dancers of all persuasions and cultures,especially Brazilian, and circus performers,and a number of other related activities,including, but not restricted to,MARTIAL ARTS. The time needed to indulge in such is lengthy if one is to progress beyond a mere acquaintence but there are certain things one can gather from watching and reading and taking actual instruction in such. Snow boarding and skate-boarding are two other areas that can also help possibly,at least for younger persons. The example of a kick right off without warmups is something that you might wonder about. Actually, it has only something to do with muscle power but more with nerves. The Alexander Method(which was primarily for actors,etc.) is a way to do things naturally. The Founder of the method(Alexander) is shown in one of his books at an advanced age,kicking over a chair without any warmup,etc. I suggest you try kicking over a chair or across it with a hook or circular kick,etc. to see what I mean. The speed of a kick can be important as much as the power behind it,if not more so, depending on the target a bit also and what section of the foot you use,probably. Okinawan toe kicks are something only a rare few can do effectively as you all probably know. Most modern/contemporary men in Western Civilization and Culture have lost the strength,toughness, and other things involving the feet which are always encased in a shell of leather or other man-made materials or armour,if you will. Only in a barefoot culture can you really realize the lethal potential of your feet unshod!

[Bone]

Thanks for all of the info everyone! After looking through the web page provided his methods appear to me as very simlilar to Tom Kurtz! I have not read everything though just glanced!

I started to decipher soem of Kurtz's training regimend & started a new program. I feel that my hips are getting a good workout and will be loosening up

I hope this works-please continue with more info! I will try to find a dancer and see what they say, thanks again.

[Deep Sea]

Actually I see truth in both sides here; both are correct.

Absolutely, Bill. I let my body guide me as to when it needs to push hard or have an easy day.

to some extent in that they make use of weights,etc.

That’s not new. I was using weights in that discipline 25 years ago.

The speed of a kick can be important as much as the power behind it,

The power of the kick comes from the speed.

culture can you really realize the lethal potential of your feet unshod!

In western culrtures one needs to realize the impact of the shod foot, and the kick of the legal system as well as the crunch of the bone.

please continue with more info!

If you take the added weighs routine start off with less than you think you can handle.

[AlanL]

Probably about 6 years ago my son wanted me to buy him the book Stretching Scientifically. He told me that he would be able to do full splits after 30 days and proceeded to show me the magazine ad. I was doubtful telling him it was a scam but told him I would buy him the book and we would see after 30 days. Well he got the book and went to work on it every day as instructed and by god at the end of the month he could do full chair splits as show in the ad. Being 15 and in top shape didn't hurt but he did it and has remained very flexible ever since. This was the beginning of him developing some of the most powerful kicks I've ever seen.

[Deep Sea]

Is your son a split off the old block? Well, Dad, how's your stretching?