good article

[Mills75]

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/section_dis ... tion_id=13
good article by Dave Lowry on prearranged sparring I enjoyed..


Jeff

[Bill Glasheen]

We've got some of the best yakusoku kumite in the business in the various branches of Uechi Ryu. Each branch has its own.

Some swear by the stuff. Others think it'll cause warts to grow on your hands and make you go blind.

Oh wait, that's...

It's a tool. It gives you something to work with other than a bag or a Wing Chun wooden dummy.

There are right and wrong ways to do this stuff. We've talked a lot about it before. Basically you have to decide how you want to fight, and make your yakusoku kumite look as close to that as possible. You may not be able to do that in your very first kumite you learn and practice, but the more advanced ones (whether standard in a style or choreographed on the spot) should start to develop elements of realism and promote wise combative practices.

- Bill

[TSDguy]

Oh wait, that's...

Didn't someone on these forums refer to one-steps as "martial masturbation"?

[Bill Glasheen]

Yea, maybe that's why they're so confused...

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

You need to read Mr. Lowry’s article more carefully. His approach to Yakusoto Kumite is NOT what 98% of the Uechi folk do.

His approach is where George recommends people take it.

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick

Thanks for coming on board.

You have me puzzled here. Much of the stuff he recommends people do is the kind of stuff that makes me cringe. Most of the partner exercises I choreograph stay away from this karate-robot-man lunge punching attacks and such. Then he talks over and over about stepping back on this and that defense - something that causes a few posters on this Webpage to break into a religious fervor.

I make three punches, stepping forward right-left-right; you step back, blocking three times, then counter. But this time, instead of stepping back on my third step...

Furthermore, he said something in this article that I once said, and which caused a major flame war with certain individuals taking the comment very personally.

This is the "stop-attack" so many innovators give themselves credit for inventing.

I was being very kind to Mr. Lowry, assuming he could only talk basics in such an article. I thought sure it would cause the usual folks either to dismiss him entirely, or jump all over him.

And... He says the kinds of things that George and I have said again and again.

Prearranged kumite creates a laboratory in which you can experiment safely. You can also play around with the angles of your counterattack. What vector offers the most targets or the best chance of getting in? How about stepping off to the side and countering with a roundhouse kick? You can also try shifting slightly off-line to make a stop-attack front kick or some other counter.

Here’s another training variation...

So... You're a man who has strong convictions about the Uechi style and how partner training exercises should be done - prearranged or partially prearranged. What was it that Lowry said that struck a chord with you?

Again and again, I keep thinking that these kumite flame wars are much ado about nothing. The more people argue, the more agreement I see.

His approach to Yakusoto Kumite is NOT what 98% of the Uechi folk do.

If 98% of the Uechi folk had ANY aspect of their martial practice down pat, then we teachers would be out of a job.

- Bill

[Stryke]

For the record , i didnt like the article and it sounded like the same old kumite nonsense .

The only bits I liked with were the distancing and contact parts , and by distancing I mean practice kicking a real target .

But this can be acheived a lot of ways .

the fact that different angles and changing the drills were good .

the fact that the same attack is used because random attacks and different angles cause things not to work .... well proof that the drills not all that usefull to me . Bill sounds like your on the same page there ?

I dont see why kumites and such are necessary when theres strategy straight out of kata ? . Everything I try to teach and train is positional and/or kata based .

this is one topic that`s not likely to fade away , i still think these drills are more designed for points fighting than self defence .

But i can see the merits of routine , I guess the real argument is what the routine consists of , I`m a fan of FMA type flow drill movements where the angles and range can change etc .

And drilling students do do the spear all the way up the dojo , while someone wildly swings .

1 step 1 response is better in my mind then coreographed punch kick block turn etc etc

[Bill Glasheen]

Stryke

Your response is more like what I would have expected.

the fact that the same attack is used because random attacks and different angles cause things not to work .... well proof that the drills not all that usefull to me . Bill sounds like your on the same page there ?

To a degree...

I tell my advanced students to teach the beginners, because they often do "wrong" attacks, and attacks with "poor form." I tell them to judge their performance based on whether or not they produced an appropriate response to this surprise.

I also try to read my students anticipating the next attack, and do something different now and then - just to see if their head is in the right place.

Agreed about the flow drills. We have much to learn from the FMA folks. I like the way they take a skeleton of a prearranged exercise, and then start lacing in freeform stuff. It's like slowly taking the step from classical to jazz music.

- Bill

[benzocaine]

this is one topic that`s not likely to fade away , i still think these drills are more designed for points fighting than self defence .

What about Dan Kumite #6? I doubt you'd find that in a sparring tourney... last I knew leg breaks were illegal, or hyperextending the ankle in #2.

Okikukai Uechi practitioners have Yakasuka kumite where (if I remember right) in #5 a sternum/xiphoid process gets smashed with an elbow and a takedown with a broken elbow joint.

Kyu Kumite also has a stenum/xiphoid smash, and a shoken to the soft spot behind the ear in another section.

Even the kumite we teach white belts has a bushiken to the carotid artery and a nukite to the floating ribs.

There is probably a lot that has been lost over time as well.. I believe a move from Dan kumite was eliminated because too many folks wound up dumped on their heads.

Just some counterpoints Marcus. I hope you are well and want to see your sanchin you recently described on Ricks forum.

[HALFORD E. JONES]

A lot of these things can be discussed only when one has done his homework and not allowed mere speculation to operate! These things that are pre-arranged have several purposes,naturally. One is to insure 'proper form',whatever that is,in an ideal manner not possible in most fights and fight/self-defense scenarios. Another is to instill into you the need for precision and accuracy of stirkes, kicks,punches,etc. The third reason is to enable you to learn sequences and movements. Of course, a good deal of this stuff is done in a straight-line manner for training purposes and for large groups,etc. whereas in the old days, so I am told, people were worked differently and in small groups or as individuals, with some learning some things, and others learning something else, usually based on the persons physical,mental, and emotional type. Not everyone learned the same thing, class after class, day after day, and some never learned much no matter what!

[Stryke]

Hey ben i dont know all the drills ezactly , all i know is there to complicated to seem real to me , Am planning on posting the Sanchin soon .

It`s a worry when things are changed because it`s effective .

[Rick Wilson]

Bill:

I do agree that the principles given in the Kumites referred to are totally in opposition to those I believe in.

My comments were in regard to the adjustment of the Kumites to take them farther and evolve passed the white belt performance.

I have very strong feelings on how prearranged drills should be used. We must have some prearrangement for learning but the stagnant approach is where I disappear as well as ill-founded principles.

Rather than bash the Kumites and the poor things they teach I chose to comment on the broader principles being delivered in this article.

Perhaps I should have started with the bashing so you knew it was me posting.

[Mills75]

I don't know much and I'm just an intermediate so far in Uechi but I feel that there are benefits here and it seems like most agree there are benefits especially for a beginner or intermediate like myself.I can't really speak to how they benefit further advanced Uechika but I have the feeling that you can never go wrong with focusing on fundamentals and when Mr. Lowry speaks about these drills from my novice ears I here him saying contained within these drills are fundamentals that reinforce your karate and give you a chance to work with the moving target and maybe program your muscle memory in fundamental kicking and punching not that it will always be right there and so easy for you in a fight but it shows the road map and not neccassarily the road itself..it says to me sharpen your tools and prepare them correctly so in a fight where unexpected things come you know at least what you can expect from yourself..I don't know I just like the dirlls and have a feeling I always will but like I said I am a novice and not an expert..

Jeff

[Bill Glasheen]

Halford, I'm not sure what you mean about Van and the Bubishi. Last I checked, Patrick McCarthy was the man with the most famous English translation. At least that's the version I have...

You are probably not aware of the history of Yakusoku kumite wars on these webpages. They flair up on various forums, although Van had a record thread going on "The K-bash." It's just as well that we not dig up that stuff.

As I have said many, many times before, it's just a bloody tool. And it's but one tool in that toolkit, not to be used at the exclusion of others. Furthermore, one needs to learn how to use the thing, and learn what it can and cannot teach you.

- Bill

[Guest]

What I enjoyed about the article is the author attempts to explain how to take the drills to the next level.

Something I understand GEM has done at the hut. I have never seen Uechi kumite drills taken to this next level, never heard anyone attempt to explain how they do this, never viewed any video etc. Hey maybe some Uechika will give it a go some day.

Hey I might be the K drill antichrist but I'm always interested in effective training methods I guess I'm like you Bill, I'm a show me guy.