Katrina - what the hell went wrong???

[Mary S]

How to help....

http://www.redcross.ca

if anyone cares to add other websites to this thread on how to help in this desparate situation please do so below....

[Dana Sheets]

Folks were caught flat footed. The levys held just long enough for people to think that the worst was over and when they broke it seems like denial was the emotion du jour. As we're talking about three of the poorest states in the nation. Many folks didn't even have the means to purchase bus fare to leave let along get in a car and drive. The unfortunate only become more unfortunate in a disaster.

Relief will always come too slowly when disaster strikes. And at some level is seems like we're much more capable of planning for adverse advents that are just inconvenient vs events that are actual disasters. It's like our brains refuse to embrace the possibility of total chaos.

Anyway - a friend of mine suggested this site as well:

http://www.secondharvest.org/

[CANDANeh]

How to help....

http://www.redcross.ca

if anyone cares to add other websites to this thread on how to help in this desparate situation please do so below....

None to add but needs to be said again "help in this desparate situation"

[Ryokan]

Now mind you, I haven't had the opportunity to verify this, but my dad, who evacuated the city, tells me that Sheriff Harry Lee ordered up busses to evacuate people before the fact. Almost no one would board them.

[Dana Sheets]

Right but there are so many other issues for the poor:
-where would they be taken
-how would they get shelter, facilities, food, water, healthcare
-how would they get home
-loss of whatever they might have a home if they're not there to protect from theives
-fear of the unknown

You'd bascially have to do a pretty effective social marketing campaign pretty darn quickly to address the fears of a large population of economically disadvantaged folks to convince them they will be better off someplace else. When you live hand to mouth picking up and leaving is much more difficult than it is for folks who can just get a cash advance on their credit card at the ATM in the new town.

If you ask people if they'd rather risk dying in a strange place or at home - most will pick home. A report on NPR from a reporter who had covered the "Hurricane Pam" discovery and planning game in July in Louisiana said that they were planning that 20% of the popluation would choose not to evacuate. They said that figure was in line with how many people regularly stay behind whenever an evacuation is ordered in Hurricane cities.

[Guest]

One of the unfortunate oversights in the evacuation procedures is that there is no protocol for stores with guns and ammunition.

They need to be locked up and secure. One ... there are gangs and thugs who will steal and loot. Two ... there are crazed individuals who feel desperate. Their homes are gone. They have lost their family. Their future is floating in the wastewater at their feet. They resort to irrational violence for some glimmer of self-control in their lives.

I'm not making excuses for them or condoning the stealing of weapons and amunition. Why do banks have guards and courtrooms have baillifs? It's irresponsible not to have safeguard procedures in crisis situations.

[Mark Weitz]

I'm sickened at the willful neglect and abication of responsibility by the US goverment. This was well known to be one of three most likely catastrophic events to occur and W slashes funding to programs that would have helped Louisana be better protected and prepared for this disaster.

It's clear that from the beginning there was no plan, no structured response and it was too little too late.

I read a portion of a recent thread that to me was a bogus debate about "blaming", that is, whether we should lay blame or not on those poor politicians. When did it become taboo to lay blame when it's due and deserved? Why are those in the most powerful positions to be protected from responsibility and blame when it is so richly deserved? And why are people so time-sensitive about blame, as if calling a spade a spade somehow hampers relief efforts. The only thing hampering relief efforts is the utter lack of planning by the federal government, the willful evisceration of goverment programs to help New Orleas be better prepared for disasters such as flooding and the removal of development controls on the wetlands, which many within the public service knew would hasten the destruction from flooding.

Mark

[Guest]

as if calling a spade a spade somehow hampers relief efforts.

Well, according to this "Rap Star", Bush doesn't like blacks so he's just taking his time.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168387,00.html

[MikeK]

I'm sickened at the willful neglect and abication of responsibility by the US goverment. This was well known to be one of three most likely catastrophic events to occur and W slashes funding to programs that would have helped Louisana be better protected and prepared for this disaster.

You are right Mark, the state of Louisiana should never have let the city grow in an area that was a disaster waiting to happen. The state of Mississippi should never have allowed those floating casinos to be built in that location. Only a goverment that is responsible for building and running a city is responsible for the choices that city makes. As horrible and sad as this event is the locals and the officials that they elected have to take a good part of the blame. The only way to protect anybody or anything from nature is not to have the hubris that you can tame it, control it and bend it to your will; In the end nature always does an end run around even the best made plans.

[eastcoast_bsc]

When did America become a country of cry babies, and pathetic individuals who alsways play the blame game. There are countless volunteers and billions of dollars pouring into the region as we speak. People who play arm chair quarterback, should maybe step up and volunteer as countless others are. It is not W's fault that a once in a Hundred year storm hit and destroyed a city that sat below sea level. Remember 9-11 there were those malcontents that whined and pointed fingers. There is not one major event that happens in this country, where those , who spend their lives, either racebaiting or trying to tear down there US Goverment, take pot shots at the US, whether it be our Goverment, or the race angle, or maybe the obligatory slap at people of faith. I remember when I was 18 and in the US Army, we were taught to work together and to quit all the whining. Just my Rant

[Mark Weitz]

Well, according to this "Rap Star", Bush doesn't like blacks so he's just taking his time.

I don't think it's that simple and I don't agree that W is taking his time, which he did, simply because Louisana has a large poor Black population, though I understand why many black Americans feel that W is racist.

You are right Mark, the state of Louisiana should never have let the city grow in an area that was a disaster waiting to happen. The state of Mississippi should never have allowed those floating casinos to be built in that location. Only a goverment that is responsible for building and running a city is responsible for the choices that city makes. As horrible and sad as this event is the locals and the officials that they elected have to take a good part of the blame.

You're right. It isn't just a federal matter and a large responsibility rests with state and local authorities. However, I'm angry at W for cutting needed funding, which is his responsibility, to programs that would have helped lessen the damage and possibly deaths. FEMA also had cuts to its funding as did other programs to prevent flooding etc., which by now everyone who reads the papers knows about.

It is not W's fault that a once in a Hundred year storm hit and destroyed a city that sat below sea level.

It's not W's fault that the storm happened. It is his fault that he reduced the funding to needed programs to lessen the damage and suffering.

When did America become a country of cry babies, and pathetic individuals who alsways play the blame game. There are countless volunteers and billions of dollars pouring into the region as we speak.

As a Canadian I'm not sure I can answer that. I disagree with the "cry-baby" characterization. In a democracy, people and the press are supposed to be allowed to air their feelings and cry foul if they see neglect and poor leadership. Simply because there are efforts to help doesn't mean that it's taboo or blaming to identify what went wrong and what could have been done. This isn't simply a matter of Monday morning quarter-backing. This is a national disaster and W was again late to respond and it took only a little digging to see where there was a history of neglect, probably both state and federal, that contributed significantly to the scale of the destruction.

Not only is this not merely blaming, it is vital that this debate/dialogue continue so that similar mistakes can be avoided and lessons can be learned. I don't trust the government enough to act in the public interest without the necessary prodding from an informed electorate and we can't learn and grow from these disasters without close examination. And if that means some politicians will get smeared then so be it. If they don't like it they can find another line of work.

I've been watching CNN for the past week and one thing that's been raised every evening by one interviewee or another is, what would happen if this was a terrorist attack. After all, it's likely that dams, levees etc are obvious targets. So this past week is a good indication of the preparedness of federal, state and local authorities to deal with a disaster, only unlike a terrorist attack, there was ample warning and the problem of flooding in Louisana has been studied for many years. With this disaster we see, at least initially, slow response, lack of centralized command, lack of leadership, lack of planning, confusion. Holy smokes, if this was a terrorist attack and the response was as we've witnessed this past week I think many Americans would be wondering just what in the hell are the billions of dollars spent on Homeland Security being used for.

Mark

[MikeK]

Mark,
The reduction of funds for flood control argument may be a red-herring thrown out by those who oppose Bush.

http://www.budget.house.gov/041201tp.htm

Also here are the FEMA sit-reps pre-landfall. It's interesting to see what was being done while the newsies were reporting that nothing was being done.
Emergency Managers Sit-Rep
August 27
August 28
Sept 1

I've been watching CNN for the past week and one thing that's been raised every evening by one interviewee or another is, what would happen if this was a terrorist attack. After all, it's likely that dams, levees etc are obvious targets. So this past week is a good indication of the preparedness of federal, state and local authorities to deal with a disaster, only unlike a terrorist attack, there was ample warning and the problem of flooding in Louisana has been studied for many years. With this disaster we see, at least initially, slow response, lack of centralized command, lack of leadership, lack of planning, confusion. Holy smokes, if this was a terrorist attack and the response was as we've witnessed this past week I think many Americans would be wondering just what in the hell are the billions of dollars spent on Homeland Security being used for.

I've been thinking about the same thing. I'm not sure that any terrorist group could pull off something of this magnitude short of using a nuke. Don't forget that New Orleans is only one part of the devestation, Mississippi was hit very hard also. I'm hoping citizens and local, state and the federal goverments all learn a lesson from this.

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks for posting, Mark. However, something you said struck me...

I've been watching CNN for the past week..

It is apparent, Mark.

When did it become taboo to lay blame when it's due and deserved?

When it

hampers relief efforts

As the head of a household, and a long-time manager, I recognize the pattern. Stuff happens in life; nobody is immune. Individuals and organizations have choices. They can spend their efforts doing something about the problem. Or...they can waste time commiserating over what has happened and what is happening, and focus all their efforts on who is to blame and who should resign.

A tale of two cities

Compare and contrast Louisiana with Mississippi. New Orleans is getting all the press, when all they got is a glancing blow from the west (less severe) end of the storm. Mississippi was ground zero for Katrina.

Shortly after the storm passed, New Orleans (inappropriately) boasted that their levies had held, and the French Quarter was intact. They had "dodged a bullet." Any fool who lives by a body of water (including yours truly) knows it takes time for the runoff to make its way into the major rivers and lakes, and do some of the most severe damage. It was only a matter of time before the lake north of New Orleans broke the levies, and the population was stranded. The leadership both in New Orleans and in Baton Rouge KNEW this scenario was likely to happen. They did not call martial law IMMEDIATELY as they should have. They did not get the buses where they needed to be (they were sitting nearby idle, for lack of security on the buses) while people died.

Then, you get Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco holding a press conference. What does she do at a time when people with nothing more than car and battery-powered radios need confidence from above? She cries, and asks people to pray. Weak...

Contrast that with Mississippi. This state was GROUND ZERO for Katrina. Governor Barbour gets on the air before, during, and after the storm passing, and states what WILL be done. When asked what would be done about looting, he stated that the state would treat them "ruthlessly." This morning on Meet the Press, a Louisiana state official got on the air and started bawling like a baby about the mother of an employee who could not get rescued, and demanded accountability from DC. It was so bad, that the commentator (Tim Russert) had to switch over to Governor Barbour from Mississippi. Governor Barbour, meanwhile, stated that his experience with the Federal Government was quite different, and that the effort was continuing as he spoke. He indirectly alluded to the fact that their state, unlike Louisiana, took a direct hit, and they were dealing with it.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and that rule applies especially to a lack of leadership.

You want to blame cuts in funding to government programs? Get in line; this is the crisis du jour. Expecting the federal government to bail us all out of problems is demanding a recipe for financial disaster. This country was made strong through state independence, and with independence comes responsibility.

Just as the leadership in Boston knew they had do something serious about transportation issues (hence "the big dig"), so too did folks in New Orleans know that the levies which protected the city were actually CAUSING the city to sink and make it more vulnerable. Articles written in the Time Picayune were prophetic about what would happen. But New Orleans should no more expect the federal government to bail it out than those on my own east coast (for example the Outer Banks of NC) should expect the same when they insist on building in the path of hurricanes. And if you think that people can't survive direct hits from serious storms, talk to people who live in Bermuda. Where are their problems?

The one thing I blame the federal bureaucracy for is the lack of foresight in terms of what it would do to energy production. A major portion of oil drilling and oil refinery capacity lies in the path of these storms. That's just a fact of nature, and can't completely be avoided. We are lucky that there are petroleum reserves, and that shows some forward planning. But you still need the people and their cities to run the economies that support this vital national interest.

And finally, we on these various forums have talked ceaselessly about "what if" scenarios. We've discussed what life can be like when lawlessness happens. Van, Rich and I have had very specific threads devoted just to these issues. As the secretaries constantly remind us all with the signs on their desks, "A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

So what to do? Stop blaming people, and get to work. If you think this emergency is over, then I want what you are smoking. It'll take about 5 years to recover from this. And if things are done right, they won't fix a single pane of glass in New Orleans until they deal with the problem of sinking land created by the stupid water retention technology. If they can't first conquer this problem, then our money would be best served by using what's left of the city for military target practice. That would be humane, compared to what a direct hit from a similar storm would have done to the city.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Bill, We have to remember that tears and crying worked during the Clinton administration to solve all problems. Right?

I really hope they don't try to rebuild the place. Who would insure them and for what cost?

From Sept 1, FEMA site for the blame Bush folks.

National Guard units and members in 17 more states remained on standby today, ready to provide assistance as required in the wake of extensive damage, rising floodwaters, and power and communications outages throughout the region, Air Force Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke, a DoD spokeswoman, said.

The guardsmen remain under their respective governors' control, which enables them to provide law-enforcement support in the affected regions -- something the Posse Comitatus Act prohibits active-duty forces from doing within the United States. While under state control, the National Guard is not bound by Posse Comitatus, NORTHCOM officials explained.

Interesting

September 02, 2005

Troops begin combat operations in New Orleans

By Joseph R. Chenelly
Times staff writer

NEW ORLEANS — Combat operations are underway on the streets “to take this city back” in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

“This place is going to look like Little Somalia,” Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, commander of the Louisiana National Guard’s Joint Task Force told Army Times Friday as hundreds of armed troops under his charge prepared to launch a massive citywide security mission from a staging area outside the Louisiana Superdome. “We’re going to go out and take this city back. This will be a combat operation to get this city under control.”

Jones said the military first needs to establish security throughout the city. Military and police officials have said there are several large areas of the city are in a full state of anarchy.

Dozens of military trucks and up-armored Humvees left the staging area just after 11 a.m. Friday, while hundreds more troops arrived at the same staging area in the city via Black Hawk and Chinook helicopters.

“We’re here to do whatever they need us to do,” Sgt. 1st Class Ron Dixon, of the Oklahoma National Guard’s 1345th Transportation Company. “We packed to stay as long as it takes.”

While some fight the insurgency in the city, other carry on with rescue and evacuation operations. Helicopters are still pulling hundreds of stranded people from rooftops of flooded homes.

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard and police helicopters filled the city sky Friday morning. Most had armed soldiers manning the doors. According to Petty Officer 3rd Class Jeremy Grishamn, a spokesman for the amphibious assault ship Bataan, the vessel kept its helicopters at sea Thursday night after several military helicopters reported being shot at from the ground.

Numerous soldiers also told Army Times that they have been shot at by armed civilians in New Orleans. Spokesmen for the Joint Task Force Headquarters at the Superdome were unaware of any servicemen being wounded in the streets, although one soldier is recovering from a gunshot wound sustained during a struggle with a civilian in the dome Wednesday night.

“I never thought that at a National Guardsman I would be shot at by other Americans,” said Spc. Philip Baccus of the 527th Engineer Battalion. “And I never thought I’d have to carry a rifle when on a hurricane relief mission. This is a disgrace.”

Spc. Cliff Ferguson of the 527th Engineer Battalion pointed out that he knows there are plenty of decent people in New Orleans, but he said it is hard to stay motivated considering the circumstances.

“This is making a lot of us think about not reenlisting.” Ferguson said. “You have to think about whether it is worth risking your neck for someone who will turn around and shoot at you. We didn’t come here to fight a war. We came here to help.”



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[Topos]

"willful neglect and abication of responsibility by the US goverment" (sic)

HUH?

I find the technique of Reductio Ad Absurdum that I once taught in a logic course best expresses my view:

"The US Government was negligent! It did not prepare for this terrble disaster. Bush is a fault, of course. Why did he not predict and prevent the techtonic plate movements that caused Yellowstone to explode into a mega volcano? If we only had a Clinton in power s/he would have prevented it and emote."

[Sir Laurence Olivier once said "You are a great actor when you can fake sincerity. [grin]}

I was amazed to have read in high school that Hannibal once had his camp in the 'long dead' crater of Mt. Vesuvius. Those Pompeans had the goverment to blame for ..............

It might beehove one to integrate into any analysis the endemic corruption of the New Orleans and Lousiana ethos & political system, the chain of command, the attitudes, and , if I may be so bold, [here I emulate the late comedian Sam Kinnison with a loud, hoarse yell into the microphone]

"the damned city is 50' under sea level. What do you expect?'

As a sage sargeant said so long ago said in an introductory Ranger course: "Great battle plans go up in smoke when the first bullet flies at you".

This is just my poor, limited, humble, country boy view. I could be wrong [GRIN].