why do I see more style bashing?

[a.f.]

I was looking in a judo forum, and I saw an interesting post. A judoka claimed that he used to be a very skilled and successful karateka, but then took up judo and muay thai. He said he would never (in all caps) go back to karate. He said he would surely go back to Muay Thai.

There are two comments I would like to make.

1. Why are people so immature as to dismiss other styles in this way?

2. Karate works. Uechi is a bare-bones, practical, useful style. I don't give a damn what anybody says, I'm going to keep training it. I'll cross train, but I won't give it up.

I hear the argument: "if karate works, why don't we see any karate guys in serious MMA fighting?

After much deliberation, my answer:

I don't have a damn clue. But it proves nothing.

Kung fu works too, despite the complaints of the loyal UFC fans.

Different styles for different situations.

I tell people: you don't like my style, don't train it. But don't tell me it won't work.

Sorry had to go off on a rant there. But I find it sad that it's now fashionable to denigrate karate and kung fu.

[Bill Glasheen]

if karate works, why don't we see any karate guys in serious MMA fighting?

Have you ever seen Joe Pomfret in the ring?

Remember that even the MMA venues are cooperative, "dualing" venues. What works there will not work on the street with 3 bad guys trying to off you. Do you honestly think you'll get away with protracted groundfighting in that venue? Ask the original samurai who used jiujitsu on the battlefield - and not the sport ring - to kill other warriors.

What works in the ring will not work with a weapon (or more) involved. What works there will not work with a different set of rules and initial conditions.

And I've never seen a Muay Thai person do something that I couldn't do out of a stripped-down version of my Uechi. The most significant factor I see is the magnitude of the gonad to brain ratio.

Also never forget the old saying about confusing the moon for the finger pointing at it. It isn't the style; it's the person teaching it and/or practicing it.

Let the idiot with the identity crisis and poor pattern recognition skills enjoy his personal epiphany. Some dogs just can't be made to look past your pointing finger.

- Bill

[Stryke]

And I've never seen a Muay Thai person do something that I couldn't do out of a stripped-down version of my Uechi. The most significant factor I see is the magnitude of the gonad to brain ratio.

see even enlightened karate masters take pot shots at other styles


Human nature it seems

Also never forget the old saying about confusing the moon for the finger pointing at it. It isn't the style; it's the person teching it and/or practicing it.

or it could be the brain to gonad ratio that determines it all

[Jake Steinmann]

And I've never seen a Muay Thai person do something that I couldn't do out of a stripped-down version of my Uechi. The most significant factor I see is the magnitude of the gonad to brain ratio.

- Bill

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of macho idiots. That's us.

Muay Thai is every bit as sophisticated and interesting as Uechi is. Different, yes. But still sophisiticated.

Style bashing is indeed, stupid and pointless. Sadly, it happens.

[JimHawkins]

Muay Thai is every bit as sophisticated and interesting as Uechi is. Different, yes. But still sophisiticated.

Jake:

I have no idea if you know anything about the history of Muay Thai but I'll ask antway..

I am interested in what differences existed in the older, less modern sport oriented versions of Muay Thai.. Did they not in fact use or perhaps still use a wooden dummy for training bridge work?

What other tools, weapons or training was a part of the older less mainstream sport oriented MT we may not see today?

Was there a softer, more internal side?

I have heard that MT and WCK may have been connected as well as some other CMA in the past with similar roots..

[a.f.]

Interesting thoughts everyone.

Jake: I don't think either myself or Bill was trying to demean your style. To each his own.

[Jake Steinmann]

Muay Thai is every bit as sophisticated and interesting as Uechi is. Different, yes. But still sophisiticated.

Jake:

I have no idea if you know anything about the history of Muay Thai but I'll ask antway..

I am interested in what differences existed in the older, less modern sport oriented versions of Muay Thai.. Did they not in fact use or perhaps still use a wooden dummy for training bridge work?

What other tools, weapons or training was a part of the older less mainstream sport oriented MT we may not see today?

Was there a softer, more internal side?

I have heard that MT and WCK may have been connected as well as some other CMA in the past with similar roots..

Jim,

Unfortunately, my knowledge of Muay Thai history and pre-existing styles is somewhat limited. There's virtually nothing in the way of English language sources on the subject (even finding books on Thai history is tough), and I have not had the resources necessary to go to Thailand and investigate (eve if I spoke Thai, which I don't). I believe a gentleman named Vincent Giordano is currently working on a book on the subject; hopefully, once it comes out, we'll know more.

From what I've seen of older versions (sometimes called Mae Mai Muay Thai, or Muay Boran), many of the techniques are similar to modern Muay Thai, but with a slightly different emphasis. The older systems sometimes use deeper stances, and some of the throws that they use are not ring legal (mostly because they involve spiking the other guy on his head). Other techniques involve attacking the limbs with elbows and knees to break things...again, not really suitable for the ring. The punching structure seems to be a little different, which isn't surprising, since modern Muay Thai has been heavily influenced by western boxing, particularly by Dutch fighters.

I've never heard of a Thai style using a wooden dummy, nor any connection between WCK and any Thai system. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist...I just haven't heard of it. Most modern Muay Thai practitioners would eschew the wooden dummy in favor of a heavy bag.

In terms of weapons: there's a Thai weapons system called Krabi Krabong, which teaches a variety of ancient weapons, including Double Swords, Staff, Mae Sawk (tonfa with attitude), and...single sword, I think. I'm probably forgetting some. It's not a very common art in the states, though I know one of the Dog Brothers has trained in it, and mixed it with his Kali/Escrima.

(http://dogbrothersvideo.com/dbmaa05.wmv)

I don't know if there was an "internal" component. The Thai don't seem to use the internal/external seperation that's common in Chinese/Japanese systems. Again, I may just not have heard of it. Thailand is a heavily Buddhist country, and Buddhism certainly influences the practice of Muay Thai (for example, the Ram Muay--the ritual dance done at the beginning of each fight--is suppossed to help ward off evil spirits, among other things).

Ultimately, I wish I had better answers for you. If I come up with some, I'll certainly pass them on.

[JimHawkins]

Thanks Jake..

I seem to remember reading some info that suggested that MT had originated from similar roots as some Chinese systems. I also thought I remembered seeing or reading about the old style using a wooden dummy but it was a long time ago..

There are forms or were, if I am not mistaken.. From what I understand these are not used much anymore.. Perhaps the same is true of a MT dummy, and other training tools.. I'll look around when I get a chance...

The use of the dummy is common in several Chinese styles for sure.. But it's more for working "bridge control" reference points or movements using feel to determine where the opponents arms, legs are and the right angle to avoid their force while attacking, providing limited kinesthetic and tactile feedback while working parries, controls, angling, etc--a focus more about position WRT the opponent's tools and not really used as most folks would use a bag.

[AAAhmed46]

Originally posted by a.f.

if karate works, why don't we see any karate guys in serious MMA fighting?

Bas rutten for one, and he gives credit to karate and TKD in his websit on his BIOGRAPHY FAQ.

CHUCK ##### LIDDEL!!!!!(kenpo and karate)


Some really good wing-chun players are emerging on the MMA scene, mostly in britian.

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of macho idiots. That's us.

Seems like anyone above thirty who does thiis usually isnt,

but maaaan lets face it, Muay thai seems to attract a different sort of youth.

[a.f.]

I thought Liddell was a kickboxer?

[Bill Glasheen]

Indeed no bashing was delivered or intended. Quite the contrary, when you see something you like in a style and can easily find a way to make it your own, it's the sincerest form of flattery.

Uechi kata reek of inside elbow and knee techniques. A roundhouse kick (or roundhouse knee to the ribs) is nothing more than a Uechi front kick (or Uechi knee strike/thrust) with a pelvic tilt. And let's not forget all the roundhouses in kyu and dan kumite. (Go figure...) The clench comes straight from Sanchin freakin kata. Anybody ever try to think of some good uses for a closed temple gate posture? If you can't see all the head butt opportunities in Uechi kata, you weren't looking. (They start in Kanshu) If you put gloves, headgear, and some silk shorts on a Uechika, what the hell is (s)he going to do but something that looks exactly like Muay Thai.

Let me quote a great martial artist.

never forget the old saying about confusing the moon for the finger pointing at it. It isn't the style; it's the person teaching it and/or practicing it.

Of course I guess my way of looking at things don't count, because

That's not Uechi!!!

With tongue always firmly planted in cheek, and Spellcheck now = on.

- Bill

[a.f.]

Bill, you've just articulated what I've believed for a long time about Uechi kata. A lot of the bread and butter is in close, bare-bones fighting. Sanchin lends itself very well to clinch fighting, I agree. It's like what I was talking about in the other thread, the importance of keeping the elbows tucked.

Sanchin stepping makes the leg hard to sweep or take out, although leg pick takedowns seem to work well against a sanchin stance. Nevertheless, it's all in Sanchin.

[Jake Steinmann]

Seems like anyone above thirty who does thiis usually isnt,

but maaaan lets face it, Muay thai seems to attract a different sort of youth.

I don't really think so. I've met plenty of young karateka (and some older ones) who were just as macho, gung ho, and arrogant as some of the Muay Thai youngsters out there. And don't even get me started on the attitudes of *some* (not all) of the kung fu practitioners of the world.

I think it has more to do with age, and less to do with art.

[Jake Steinmann]

Indeed no bashing was delivered or intended. Quite the contrary, when you see something you like in a style and can easily find a way to make it your own, it's the sincerest form of flattery.

Uechi kata reek of inside elbow and knee techniques. A roundhouse kick (or roundhouse knee to the ribs) is nothing more than a Uechi front kick (or Uechi knee strike/thrust) with a pelvic tilt. And let's not forget all the roundhouses in kyu and dan kumite. (Go figure...) The clench comes straight from Sanchin freakin kata. Anybody ever try to think of some good uses for a closed temple gate posture? If you can't see all the head butt opportunities in Uechi kata, you weren't looking. (They start in Kanshu) If you put gloves, headgear, and some silk shorts on a Uechika, what the hell is (s)he going to do but something that looks exactly like Muay Thai.

Bashing might not have been intended, but there was a certain "we do all of that, and more, and better" sense that came across. The expanded version makes more sense.

I agree, to a point; Thai mechanics and Uechi mechanics are different. A Uechi-ka trying to adapt to Muay Thai would look similar, but not exactly the same. Neither is better or worse...just different.

[AAAhmed46]

Seems like anyone above thirty who does thiis usually isnt,

but maaaan lets face it, Muay thai seems to attract a different sort of youth.

I don't really think so. I've met plenty of young karateka (and some older ones) who were just as macho, gung ho, and arrogant as some of the Muay Thai youngsters out there. And don't even get me started on the attitudes of *some* (not all) of the kung fu practitioners of the world.

I think it has more to do with age, and less to do with art.

Maybe it's a canadian thing.