Last try to convince Bill that chi is real.

[MikeK]

If this doesn't do it Bill, I don't know what will.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU& ... ed&search=

BTW, I ordered you one of those snazzy outfits in a size large.

[Bill Glasheen]

I like the red color. But if we're going to make it a Western thing, maybe we need red, white, and blue unies.

Funniest thing I've seen in a long time, Mike. Thanks.

I can't decide what is more cruel - to be duped like that, or to walk into such a group and destroy their fantasies.

- Bill

[MikeK]

It is just totally nuts.

[Bill Glasheen]

Actually it really isn't nuts at all.

The more I look at these kinds of demos, the more they look just like the hypnosis shows that were so famous at UVa every fall. Some guy used to do the college circuit, making college kids do stupid things and sing songs of their childhood.

Here a whole group of college kids are driving race cars.



Take a look at a short clip of Joshua Seth'sshow.

Now... Watch what they do in your post during their "chi" exercises. It isn't a lot different than the rituals that these hypnosis show masters would do to get things started.

Is there benefit? If it floats your boat, then go for it. But if you go on the battle field, make sure your opponent believes in your voodoo. Otherwise you're f-ed the same way some of those Boxers were who thought that the British bullets would bounce off of their bodies.

- Bill

[JOHN THURSTON]

Well;

Many of the movements seen are Chi Kungs that are helpful, other movements seem akin to Aikido (if some gets you in a thumlock, you're 'going up") and some are movements from a T'ai Chi set.

Ok.

So Some of the stuff isn't moose kaka.

And nothing can prove Chi exists except in the sense that "electrical' energy exists in the nervous system and can be controled.

This energy is mostly internal (of course) and the Ancient Chinese masters simply labeled it "Chi" (or "ki" in japanese).

Some practitioners 'seem to be able to pass the energy to another" in positive and negative ways.

But proof---that's a tough one.

One can certainly learn much about articulating movements of parts of the body in a way that is not obvious to american Uechi Practitioners, and, to some extent, one can control the flow of power in the nervous system.

But no Sifu I have practiced with or my long ago Aikido Sensei made any claims as being able to 'make opponents hop like grashoppers' as shown in the video, via a mere touch..

i have seen what seemed a demonstration of transferece of "chi" through a hung blanket which simply pushed a subject slightly to one side. i think this was at one Summerfest years ago. Perhaps GEM sensei would remmeber.

So, is there something like Chi as the ancients called it--yeah, but it is not magical stuff.

Yes, yes, I know, we have been over these points many times. Sorry.

john

[Bill Glasheen]

And nothing can prove Chi exists except in the sense that "electrical' energy exists in the nervous system and can be controled.

This energy is mostly internal (of course) and the Ancient Chinese masters simply labeled it "Chi" (or "ki" in japanese).

First... I'm a biomedical engineer. And I've measured nerve traffic in the laboratory. The voltage of nerve traffic by the way is in microvolts. (One microvolt = 0.000001 volts.)

That won't move squat.

IMHO, "chi" is a metaphor used by Chinese who haven't taken enough science and didn't do basic anatomy. Its best translation is "energy", although it's used in so many ways by the Chinese (through specific words) that it just doesn't translate to English very well.

When someone speaks "chi" and they know what they are doing, I can generally squint my eyes and translate to basic science. What is real is real.

That film is about ca ca. That film shows why we should throw the whole damn word out of our martial vocabulary.

- Bill

[mhosea]

I wonder why their chi is always too weak to levitate a person unambiguously for several seconds while they flail uselessly in the air. Perhaps if they can't levitate a person they could levitate a small dog?

IMHO, "chi" is a metaphor used by Chinese who haven't taken enough science and didn't do basic anatomy. Its best translation is "energy", although it's used in so many ways by the Chinese (through specific words) that it just doesn't translate to English very well.

In addition to this "internal" notion of chi, I see the idea of projected chi as a metaphor for the sum total of cues that we give off to the social animals (including other humans) around us who are wired to pick up on them. For example, when Cesar Milan talks about the "energy" you're giving off in the presence of a dog, he's not talking about mysterious forces of nature, rather the state of mind that the dog will infer that you are in from the external cues you are displaying, e.g. tensed shoulders, etc. Since dogs are essentially non-verbal, they are naturally tuned into these cues.

[chef]

What a great way to test Chi, try it on unassuming animals. That would be interesting.

Remember the one clip Tony provided on the sheep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg

Oh my gosh, I laughed so hard that I nearly fell out of my seat.

Vicki

[wes tasker]

Bill-

That film shows why we should throw the whole damn word out of our martial vocabulary.

When you use the word "our" are you refering to Uechi-ryu or the martial arts in general?

-wes

[Bill Glasheen]

When you use the word "our" are you refering to Uechi-ryu or the martial arts in general?

Martial arts in general.

Tim Cartmel has posted on this topic before. He has published in the martial literature on the soft styles (Xing Yi) and speaks pretty fluent Chinese. The short of it is that way too much is lost in the translation. What comes out the back end is a combination of too many attributes linked to a single word combined with these martial magic shows.

- Bill

[IJ]

I really would pay money to spar that guy. Apparently he can tap people and they suddenly feel compelled to do an interpretive dance. Win or lose it'd be worth it. I haven't laughed that hard in a while.

[JOHN THURSTON]

William Sensei:

But of course the Chinese who 'felt' they had dicovered a new 'power' in the hunabn body, as was duly noted, and, in sonething of a state of ignorance, named it Chi. Please don't be condescending, I am on your side and I am your friend and probably you did not feel your were speaking in such a fashion.

I understand, and have understood your background for many years, and I undrstand that the actual measure of electrical current in the human body's CNS is miniscule, yet without it, we would die.

Do you not feel energized when you teach a good group of studnts? OF COURSE this energy you feel may be tte endorphin reaction and adrenal reaction kicking in-and perhaps the ancients mearly noted this and dubbed the three effects initially Chi, because, as you have said, they lacked your medical skills and equipment.

What choice did they really have.?.

T'ai Chi (cultivation of Chi) has 'powers' in the form: Push, Press are the two I remember now, but there are five in all.

What does that have to do with 'Chi' maybe nothing, but the names of the powers are a way to create focus on individual concepts of the tranferrance of power to an adversary.

I have seen Chi Na players (an Aikido like art based on t'ai chi movement) and no one speaks of Chi as such.

When a therapist directs my attention to a point that his or her machine indicates (thru biofeedback) that there should ber pain at certain point some "attention' to this point can relieve the pain.

I can't explain or prove the effects of this 'attention" but several Biofeedback Therepists were astounded to see me learn that skill so quickly.

I wonder how?

BUT when the pain is intense FMS pain it is "Pill Me!" time.

I can hold off terrible onslaughts of pain for no more than an hour.

But, as I said, I understand your skills and background and cannot yet prove chi exists, but the control of what? enabled me to dampen pain in a particular spot?


Now I speak from my heart as someone who has to deal with pain on a daily basis. The electictricy arising from the focus on cultivation of miniscule axon synapse closing or opening can not even be measured, but I can feel its effects.


respectfully submitted

john

[JOHN THURSTON]

Just as an aside, I only studied a bit of Hsing I, and what I learned, ws not soft.


Comments?

J

[Bill Glasheen]

Just as an aside, I only studied a bit of Hsing I, and what I learned, ws not soft.


Comments?

J

It didn't take me long to Google the following (from Wikipedia). This confirms what I knew off the top of my head - that there are three classic internal arts from China.

The term "nèijiā" usually refers to the internal styles of Chinese martial arts, which Sun Lutang identified in the 1920s as T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Xíngyìquán and Bāguàzhǎng. This classifies most other martial arts as "wàijiā" (lit. "external/outside sect").

Please don't be condescending

My bad...

There's a bit of a running joke on the chi thing - in case you didn't notice. Way back in the days when there was just one lonely Forum here, Dr. X (a Uechika and board certified neurosurgeon) and I would take turns shooting down the chi arguments. It got so predictable that every time someone would use the "c" word, a regular would post "Incoming!"

Finally we (along with James Randi) actually challenged one of these no-touch chi guys (Rich Mooney) to a scientific test of his skills at camp. I must say that Mr. Mooney was at least sincere, and graciously submitted to the trial. The results are written up on the website here somewhere. (I found one web reference right here.) At the end of a blinded test, Mr. Mooney did worse than random chance on the test.

Still... There is something to the whole mind thing here. Mhosea did a really nice job picking up on something that modern psychologists might classify as "emotional intelligence." Indeed it's a powerful weapon in a martial artist's bag of tricks.

- Bill

[wes tasker]

The short of it is that way too much is lost in the translation. What comes out the back end is a combination of too many attributes linked to a single word combined with these martial magic shows.

That hasn't been my experience. I have two current teachers who use the dreaded "Qi" word in the way they teach and theren's no magic, and no plethora of attributes attached to the one word. And both have very, very solid fighting skills and very clear ways of teaching said skills.

It didn't take me long to Google the following (from Wikipedia). This confirms what I knew off the top of my head - that there are three classic internal arts from China.

Actually - most people who know about Neijia classify two other systems (Tongbei Quan & Liu Ha Ba Fa) as "internal". There is also "not" the dichotomy that's listed in the definition amongst "internal" stylists. Who don't even use that term to describe themselves. Of course this is just based on the practitioners I know here in the States (I study Xing Yi Quan...) and those that I met and/or trained with when I was in China.

-wes