How do you interpret this technique?

[Bill Glasheen]

After an interesting thead on "Uechi and headlocks", I thought it might be interesting to see how people think of their style.

So...

The "double shoken" came from China to Okinawa via Kanbun Uechi. It appears twice in Sanseiryu kata.

• In the first rendition, there is the following:
  
  • From left sanchin stance, sliding step with left circle and right shoken thrust. *
  • Sliding step back while putting back of right shoken on to the top of the back of the left shoken. The template for the position is Sanchin closed-gate position.
  • While holding the double shoken position, do a 180-degree clockwise pivot turn.
• In the second rendition, there is the following:
  
  • From left sanchin stance, sliding step with left circle and right shoken thrust. *
  • Sliding step back while putting back of right shoken on to the top of the back of the left shoken. The template for the position is Sanchin closed-gate position.
  • While holding the double shoken position, do a 45-degree clockwise pivot turn to a right Sanchin stance.
  • Follow with a double hiraiken scoop and double hiraken thrust to eye level.

It's worth mentioning that Kanei Uechi's gang choreographed Kanshiwa kata with the first 2 of 3 moves of the first rendition above. It's all there but the 180-degree turn. That in itself is fascinating IMO, and a clue to another possibility.

OK you bunkai junkies, what do you think?

Oh, and please don't bore me with the Kanshiwa bunkai interpretation. IMO this is just another example of hiding the good stuff.

- Bill

* Folks from the "inner circle" of practitioners in Kanei Uechi's dojo actually don't do a wauke there. Instead they do an osae uke. Osae translates as press down as in what a paper weight might do.

[Bill Glasheen]

Do you see the double shoken as a striking system posture, move, or technique? If so, can you elaborate?

Do you see the double shoken as a grappling system posture, move, or technique? If so, can you elaborate?

Is it fish, or is it fowl? Is it something in-between? Or is it potentially both?



- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Bill,
I firstly think uechi as been utilised more as a kick/strike,more modern [a punch and block system ,what I mean is the shokens were removed for safety ,the [kumites] etc come to mind .

When I first sampled uechi-ryu ,I already had a bit of jui jitsu practice in wado ,plus the idea of a soft fist position that loosly resembles a shoken in some ways etc,

any way upon a investigation into the doubles of sanchin [opening ] this loose shoken fist formation was in the movement framework ,a step further in interpretation was a grappling hand involvement .

[maxwell ainley]

As you may gather from my post ,before coming to uechi I had a rough an ready grasp of fist positions ,this for starters made Sanchin so interesting to me along with other reasons .

Interpretation for me then would be mostly ,what Sanchin had and my growing ability to spot things ,so gradual like in a very simple way I was begining to[ see ] how Sanchin could be in all of Uechi-ryu, thats why I looked for the shokens in Sanchin for these posts rather than skip straight to Sanseirui or seisan .

[Bill Glasheen]

Actually the Sanchin closed-gate posture is the template for the double shoken postures of Sanseiryu and subsequently Kanshiwa. So the basic posture prevails through the system.

The shokens are an add-on to this posture. But why?

the shokens were removed for safety

If you're thinking of Uechi Ryu as a kick-strike system and you want to engage in sport karate, well yes. Not only does sport karate defang the techniques, they also put pads on the hand. So over time "it" evolves to a sophisticated game of tag.

But in my opinion these shokens have nothing to do with striking. I often tell people I believe that pangainoon translates to something much more fundamental than "half hard, half soft." To me it speaks to the dual nature not just of the overall system (e.g. striking and grappling elements), but also to many of its individual components.

So if I'm not thinking of a shoken here as a striking instrument, what could I be thinking?

- Bill

[Glenn]

But in my opinion these shokens have nothing to do with striking. I often tell people I believe that pangainoon translates to something much more fundamental than "half hard, half soft." To me it speaks to the dual nature not just of the overall system (e.g. striking and grappling elements), but also to many of its individual components.

So if I'm not thinking of a shoken here as a striking instrument, what could I be thinking?

- Bill

The option that I have seen that I think you are thinking about is grabbing the front of the shirt (in particular think about the typical Chinese/Okinawan clothing at the time of Kanbun) while twisting your arms into Sanchin position and bringing your hands together, which can restrict the movement of the opponent, and if done correctly if they are wearing the right clothing apply a bit of a choke by pulling the collar tight around the neck. The shoken will help with the twisting up of the clothing and possibly, in the right situations, have the added effect of digging into the person's pressure points or soft tissue to create some discomfort and gain more compliance. This can all be a bit nastier if done on the bare skin of the torso. At the same time you are also shifting backward and thus pulling the opponent forward, as well as slightly down by what you are doing with your arms, disrupting his balance and restricting his ability to effectively counter as well as setting up for further techniques. By stopping where it does, before the turn, I think the end of Kanshiwa demonstrates using this more as a restraining technique. In Sanseiryu with the turn you are following through with a throw.

A story I have heard related to applying this technique/strategy was when a drunk man came into Takashi Kinjo's dojo wanting to fight, and Kinjo simply grabbed the man's chest with one hand while digging into the skin with the shoken and twisting and pulling to create pain compliance, then turned and walked the man to the door like that and tossed him out telling him to come back when he was sober.

One downside to the above interpretation is that the opponent will have his hands free, assuming you have not disabled them in some way beforehand, and thus there is the possibility for him to be wailing on you while you are doing this technique. The version I prefer is, rather than grabbing the opponent's shirt, to grab the back of both of the opponent's hands/wrists while performing the twisting of my arms into Sanchin, bringing my hands together, and digging into the wrists with the shokens, the combined effect of which is to twist his arms over to palm up and lock his arms stretched out while creating quite a bit of pressure and discomfort in both his wrists and elbows. And by pulling the opponent forward and slightly down you are restricting his ability to kick while you have his arms locked up. Again, it can be used as a restraint or as prelude to a throw. I find it a relatively easy and effective technique. This is my oldest daughter's absolute least favorite way I get her immobilized when we are working out.

[Bill Glasheen]

Glenn

You got the conversation on a wonderful start.

This is a picture fom a "Beginning BJJ" site. Does the hand position look familiar?

So if I'm not thinking of a shoken here as a striking instrument, what could I be thinking?

Anyone who has done the jar training instinctively will get a paradigm shift about all these "Uechi pointy thingsTM." Any of these techniques - quite specifically the shoken and the hiraken - are just as easily used to grab as they are to thrust, poke, or strike. And in the picture above, we see it's something other than the person's body that they are grabbing.

The picture shows an example of a "deep" grab. Given that this is a blood choke and not an airway choke, what do you see is being used to occlude the blood vessels in this particular application?

More later.

- Bill

[Evan Pantazi]

OK I'll bite... how about this from the first appearing in Sanseiru:

This will work with either hand on either side (depicted in Kata), but not simultaneously (unless one is a Gi grab, a shirt for this is to flimsy for certainty).

With the last three fingers dig in behind the clavicle and Sternocleidomastoid Muscle, as the shoken enters* into the Carotid Sinus and Nerve Structures.

* This can occur in two ways:

1. With the index fingertip (Single Blade of Grass hand posture from the Bubishi to attack the "Blood Gate") at first, then the finger curling into Shoken to tear and move the Vascular tissue, to twist and pull... as the Shoken can then be pressed harder and deeper into the surrounding Nerve and Vascular structures. (this should do something, but I will not speculate as it may be placed in the BS category).

2. Or simply grabbing the clavicle as mentioned above and shoving the Shoken in... still has to hurt a bit.

In either case when you press up as the top shoken does, the body will lift and open for an easy pull into the pivot for a hip throw.

And as the other presses down this will fold the individual lucky enough to receive it, so the pivot can just pull them to the floor with the pivot.

You see Kyusho originally was against Blood vessels that would cause immediate to prolonged ("Delayed"), affects on the normal functioning and life of the recipient. All of this above is but a scratch on the surface, we could tailor it all down to simple nerve attack for immediate affect and control as well for these modern and stupidly political correct judicial times.

PS. I guarantee that if you put this on properly their free hands will be dead weight and unusable.

[Bill Glasheen]

Talk about a blast from the past... Long time no see, Evan!

how about this from the first appearing in Sanseiru:

{snip}

In either case when you press up as the top shoken does, the body will lift and open for an easy pull into the pivot for a hip throw.

Much of what you wrote in the "snipped" part is a bit difficult to visualize. But the idea you present is quite intriguing. In other words you're looking for the opponent to raise his center of gravity to set up a hip throw, which is how you interpret the 180-degree turn.

Bringing the turn into it for a complete sentence is key here. When turning with the double shoken hand position, it's a strong signal that this was meant to be part of the sequence.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I had a slightly different line of thinking here. The 180-degree turn is an opportunity to execute several different joint locks. One which makes a lot of sense is to grab at the person's right wrist with both hands (shoken being grab) before turning while supinating their arm. If you get underneath their elbow and then stand up with their right elbow on your left shoulder (hence the importance of the high Sanchin stance), you set up a nice elbow hyperextension. This technique works best if you are equal in height or taller. If you are shorter, then you can hold their arm halfway supinated and turn into the elbow (touching the side of your left arm) with the Sanchin turn. The net effect is like any other elbow hyperextension technique, except that you do these from a standing position.

What makes this an appealing interpretation to me is the backwards slide before doing the turn. The straighter you make their arm before turning, the better it works. Also, the circle and shoken before the grab, slide, and turn would work well to take the starch out of the opponent and make the hyperextension more possible. Again, it's about thinking of sequences as opposed to individual techniques.

These aren't submission elbow hyperextensions. You either hyperextend the elbow or you don't.

True story... My special forces instructor told me a story about walking the streets of South Korea. He was minding his business and moving along from point A to point B when he walked by a group of males. One of them reached out and grabbed him. My teacher did a spin and executed this technique, hearing a loud shriek as he did so. He just kept on walking without missing a beat. As he was going away, he heard one of the fellows say "Taequondo!"

They didn't bother to follow him.

I learned this application from him as a bunkai to one of the Goju classical forms.

- Bill

[CANDANeh]

What makes this an appealing interpretation to me is the backwards slide before doing the turn

Been playing with this for sometime. Must note that bringing the elbow back (like the recoil of sanchin thrust... a mistake is to place the hand in post position instead of simply bringing back the elbow to sanchin) instead of just placing the shoken hand in position creates nice opportunities. This causes the attacker to lean forward(along with backward slide indicated) disrupting balance, forcing attackers back muscles to come into play weakening the more powerful stomach muscles which reduces the chance of them straightening during that evil turn they will face. Also, they are in position to receive a shoken to the throat if the turn is not the option you desire.

[maxwell ainley]

Actually the Sanchin closed-gate posture is the template for the double shoken postures of Sanseiryu and subsequently Kanshiwa. So the basic posture prevails through the system.

The shokens are an add-on to this posture. But why?

the shokens were removed for safety

If you're thinking of Uechi Ryu as a kick-strike system and you want to engage in sport karate, well yes. Not only does sport karate defang the techniques, they also put pads on the hand. So over time "it" evolves to a sophisticated game of tag















But in my opinion these shokens have nothing to do with striking. I often tell people I believe that pangainoon translates to something much more fundamental than "half hard, half soft." To me it speaks to the dual nature not just of the overall system (e.g. striking and grappling elements), but also to many of its individual components.

So if I'm not thinking of a shoken here as a striking instrument, what could I be thinking?

- Bill

Bill just back from a seventies music weekend were I saw many holding pint pots of beer in the shoken position .

Actually the shoken postion is the classic way to hold a trowel ,its a natural strong way due to the extended fore knuckle which adds longditudual type strength to combat weight or applied force that could break up ones structure .

So it follows I interpretate the shokens from a grapple ;strike /release /hold .