To grade or not to grade

Colin 8 of 8 · Post by **Colin 8 of 8** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 12:08 pm

A simple question, but I suspect a less than simple answer. I have never graded in ten years of study and I wonder if I am missing something. Or am I right to think that the belt is only to hold the Gi together.

Your thoughts please.

Colin 8 of 8

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:41 pm

(Devil's Advocacy)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:

Grading is just a specific example of the larger concept of evaluation and certification. In order to get most jobs, you have a minimum level of education you need before you can even apply.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what if you aren't doing it "in order to get a job"? Do you think that the color of the belt that someone is wearing should be the basis for what techniques or kata they're learning? Perhaps Colin (or someone else) has been wearing a white-belt for 10 years, but has learned everything that others who are wearing black-belts have learned... what about the situation that he shows up at, say, a seminar with his white-belt on? Would you, should you, do you have specific things you "only teach to black-belts"?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

In order to teach a class at any facility where expertise is needed and liability is involved, you need a bare minimum set of credentials. In most martial arts styles, the black belt is considered a minimum standard to teach, and the minimum level of education to consider someone as having some "permanence" of knowledge. Additional levels of expertise and types of certification may be needed for higher functions in an organization. And with "rank" comes privileges that you may or may not care to have access to.

What about the basic Sempai-Kohai relationship that was used traditionally for martial arts training? Naturally, it was easy to figure out who was more advanced in ancient Japan, Okinawa, and China... that was the martial artist who was still alive!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Second, evaluation and/or testing are universal methods of motivating individuals.

Then again, there are individuals who don't need colored belts to be motivated to train and learn. I can walk into the dojo and wear my white-belt and it makes no difference in how quickly Khoury-sensei or Spoon-sensei could kick my proverbial butt, but neither of them would nor do they or I have to find out the hard way. But it doesn't stop them from teaching me and training with me... then again, there are those who wear a black-belt on the same mat that just know they can kick my @$$ and inside I have to smile because when we've worked together, they seem to have something to prove yet all they see is a white-belt and ultimately they haven't got a clue.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

My company evaluates its employees yearly and all pay raises are tied to performance. I just got through evaluating all those that report to me, and I am being evaluated. With those evaluations come plans and goals. With written goals, my employees understand up front what I expect of them. This improves focus and increases productivity.

But that's work! I do the martial arts for me! It's my path... as selfish as that sounds. There comes a point for some people where its absolutely positively not about the belt.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

In martial arts the testing is a way to get people to learn material and enhance their performance.

My apologies in advance, but...

If someone has to have a test coming up in order to learn the art and put their complete spirit into their training, then IMNSHO that person isn't really walking the path. Somedays I'm able to give it more than other days... that's just the way the body is at this point, but that doesn't mean I need anything more than my own desire to learn everything I can and give it everything that I can at each given moment.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As I was going up the dan ranks, I would plan all my activities (years ahead) right up to the next dan date. This included weight training cycles, camp visits, and instructor contact. This planned activity really helped me learn the material and stay constantly in shape.

That's very admirable. My philosophy on the journey down the path has never changed. Different aspects of the mind, body or spirit change over times, but the way has always been the way... Perhaps an injury means not being able to do the jumps and kicks and spins, but that doesn't change the path... Perhaps there are other things that require the mental attention at certain times, but that doesn't change the path... and Perhaps there are times where the spirit has been tested to it's limits, but that doesn't change the path...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Finally, testing, competition, and scenario training are the closest thing we have to reproducing the stress that someone will undergo in a "real" attack.

With the exception of a "real" attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

It's one thing to perform well in the privacy of your home. It's another to do so with people you don't know evaluating you.

True enough, but it also doesn't mean that someone who doesn't go to a test or competition is necessarily going to choke in an altercation. Certainly those things (and the scenerio training) help someone prepare for the "chemical cocktail", but some people have experience with the "cocktail" and don't need those things.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

And a decent test is going to put you through the material in a way that will test your level of expertise under stress (like have you spar someone else at your level). This isn't the best way to test your heart and spirit, but it's one of the better ways to do it without putting your life (or someone else's) in jeopardy.

I don't need any more stress in my life!

And while it might be a great way of testing me without putting my life in jeopardy, I'm not so sure about the "someone else's"...

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:01 pm

Panther

Thanks for your advocatus diabolus. These points were needed, and I'm glad you chimed in. Let me point out a few things and then ask you a question.

I have studied knife and stick with Raffi without asking for rank (he did give me a nifty certificate last time we trained though

). I have trained with firearms but only got "certified" so I could carry concealed (state law). I have learned a number of forms (bo, tonfa, sai, crane, Fuzhou gung fu, etc) without being involved in a ranking or testing process. After your third black belt (Uechi, Goju, aikido), it gets a little silly to be collecting certificates. High rank in any "recognized" martial art is honored to some degree (explicitly or implicitly) across systems. I'm certain you are afforded a degree of courtesy because of the path you walked.

So my question is...would you feel exactly the same way about your training today if you had not gone through more traditional training in the past?

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 02, 2001).]

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:50 pm

Bill Sensei,

I can see both sides of this issue and I believe there is no correct argument; however, I do have to disagree with a statement you make below:

After your third black belt (Uechi, Goju, aikido), it gets a little silly to be collecting certificates. High rank in any "recognized" martial art is honored to some degree (explicitly or implicitly) across systems. I'm certain you are afforded a degree of courtesy because of the path you walked.

I don't agree that rank is an honor-type award. Personally, I don't think I would accept a rank if I didn't earn it in some fashion. But more importantly, I think thats where the relevence comes into play here. What do we consider "earned." Grandmaster Kanei Uechi was awarded his judan by two prestigious organizations. He didn't "test" for them, yet was he deserving? Other factors must be taken into consideration. I know that is not your main point, but I just wanted to defend those of us who are still idealistic in thinking that everything is earned and that those certificates mean something.

mike

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:20 pm

Mike

First of all, I take no strong position here, and I don't think Panther does either. He is doing the thread a service by playing advocatus diabolus. It is a device employed to get all sides of a complicated issue out on the table.

Most importantly, I think there is confusion over the meaning of the word "honor". It is a word with many different and distinct meanings. When I say <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

High rank in any "recognized" martial art is honored to some degree (explicitly or implicitly) across systems.

what I mean is <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The dignity accorded to position.

In other words, Panther is cut a break on various subtle and/or obvious levels because those who work with him know he isn't a beginner (in spite of the color of his belt). In fact...it would be a waste of his and everyone's time to treat him as a pure beginner.

As for actually being awarded the rank, well...that's another story altogether. Yes...some folks receive "honorary" degrees... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

1. Held or given as a mark of honor, esp. conferred as an honor without the usual adjuncts... 2....Holding an office or title given as an honor, without payment...

But most do indeed earn their rank and have every reason to be proud of each and every level. And it is in our best interest as an organization to be sure that the rules are such that people must earn their rank. Without that, the rank has no value. Without that, there is no reason to "honor" it.

I'm digging a bit into Panther's reasoning, based apparently on his present and past personal experience. I've studied martial arts since 1972, and have walked varied paths. I've done the testing bit for years in a number of different systems. Actually, Uechi wasn't even my first karate style. I was a brown belt in a hard Japanese system before ever having gotten rank in Uechi ryu. I have worked through various processes, and have seen their value. But at this point, it doesn't make sense for me to be going through additional processes when maybe all I want is some information to compliment what I have. To a certain extent, getting additional certification has its own issues and appearances. That's all I'm saying, and I'm wondering if this is where Panther is coming from.

- Bill

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:

So my question is...would you feel exactly the same way about your training today if you had not gone through more traditional training in the past?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No fair!

You know I've been on the path and have attained rank in a few different styles in the past... (Some would look at me on the mat today and claim that it must have been very "rank"!

) With a minor exception (asked to wear a brown-belt at a seminar before I had tested for my first shodan), I wore white until I got black. So from that perspective I went though a "traditional" progression. But let me answer your question this way... If I had never gotten into the Dan ranks in other styles and I hadn't reached the point that I'm at mentally/spiritually, Yes attaining a Dan rank in my training would be important. However, my caveat is that I have changed mentally/spiritually and now it's the journey that's important... and that journey (though I'm glad and proud to be a part of Khoury-sensei's excellent dojo) doesn't even have to include a formal school. (But the friendship and encouragement is so helpful and nice!

) So, I try to play the devil's advocate and you were able to know where I'm at... I cry foul!

Murphy-san,

Don't misunderstand my post... I never meant that certificates and rank weren't earned or meaningful, they most certainly are! Just that, as Glasheen-sempai points out, there comes a time when "collecting certificates" becomes secondary to the journey.

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited March 02, 2001).]

david · Post by **david** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

A simple question, but I suspect a less than simple answer. I have never graded in ten years of study and I wonder if I am missing something. Or am I right to think that the belt is only to hold the Gi together.

Colin,

I suspect you know the answer for yourself. Do you need external validation?

david

BTW: Bill and Panther covered well the two sides of the issue.

[This message has been edited by david (edited March 02, 2001).]

Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 9:51 pm

Ah David...you beat me to the punch on that post...

(gonna have to work on my timing - quarter second right?)

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:06 pm

david (and Mary)

The merits and issues with external validation are clear. I won't steal the thunder of your succinct post.

That being said, are you assuming that if he did elect to be "graded", that he would behave no differently between now and test time? And what about the value of the test per se? Are you assuming (or not) that there is no learning as a result of a test? And what would happen if he failed? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I suspect a less than simple answer.

As you suspected...

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 02, 2001).]

david · Post by **david** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

are you assuming that if he did elect to be "graded", that he would behave no differently between now and test time?

Only Colin knows the answer to that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

And what about the value of the test per se?

Some folks can construct their own measures. Some external measures are irrelevant to individual goals.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Are you assuming (or not) that there is no learning as a result of a test?

There can be learning with and without a test. The converse is also true.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

And what would happen if he failed?

Depends on Colin and the type of "test."

david

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 02, 2001 10:53 pm

david

You know...if I didn't know you in person, I would picture you as an old man with a long white beard seated cross-legged on a pillow.

I'm having this e-mail conversation in the background here on this subject. There are actually two issues here. One is the specific question Colin asked. The other is the general issue that he brings up. It is indeed an intriguing topic.

Before I stopped worrying so much about it, I had a reason to be extremely disciplined and achievement-oriented concerning rank. You see...there wasn't much in the way of Uechi ryu in Virginia when I was in my early stages of practicing it. After a point, the only way I was going to have other people to work out with was to teach. You have to teach a lot of people to get a few good training partners. And in order to teach, you need rank and certification because: 1) the public (and now the legal system) expects it, and 2) you need rank and certification to give it and that's what many of my students want.

Well...I could always just tell folks to go take a trip to "Mecca" to get their rank. Or...I could be service oriented and be able to do that myself. To do that, I have to follow rules and procedures, and I have to abide by the material that my "organization" expects. Now I'm the kind of guy (as are many) who occasionally likes to do things my way. There's nothing wrong with that. That means I need to have input in the requirements. In order to have input...I need certification that the organization expects.

Being creative and independent AND having to work with an organization has its issues. No matter what the organization (work, school, dojo), there's a certain amount of "BS" that goes with it. If the value of what you are trying to get is worth all the hassle, then you deal with it. That often means you have to fall in line and work inside the box when you don't necessarily feel like it. But...if you've studied long enough that you get recognition, then you can be a trend setter whose opinion is valued and whose concerns are heard.

Or...you can do away with all of the formal teaching and just learn.

Gotta go pick up number 1 son. Continue on, friends.

- Bill

david · Post by **david** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 12:04 am

For those who don't know, Bill and I have gone back and forth on this issue -- good naturedly -- a number of times.

Frankly, how we each viewed this has been shaped by our respective experiences and, to a degree, what we want out of our practices at different points in time.

For the record, I have never tested in what is now 30 years involvement with the Uechi folks. I have never trained with any consideration of rank and, therefore, never tested. Nevertheless, I was graded by teacher(s) as they saw fit. The last rank granted me -- shodan -- was in 1980 and decided by the consensus of two of my instructors. The certificate was signed by Walter Mattson, Secretary, NAUKA; and by Kanei Uechi. Since I didn't test for it, the validity of my rank can be legitimately questioned. Frankly, I didn't ask for the rank then nor care about it now. It just really doesn't matter to me. (shrug)

Have I been truly tested in my years involved with Uechi-Ryu and training in general? I would say so according to my own measures and largely passed according to my own standards. (These I don't need to go into.)

Have I submitted to "external tests?" Yes. In my five years of aikido, I tested up to the level of nikyu. I did so when my apathy about testing became an issue with my fellow students and with certain instructors. It became increasingly clear that my apathy with testing was not worth maintaining in face of the discomfort I was creating. I never talked about by perspective about rank. Yet, the very fact that I was not testing way past time requirements led some fellow dojomates and some instructors to feel and intimate that I was "bucking" the dojo culture and etiquette. Did I think these tests measured anything valid? Yes, according to general dojo standards. No, according to my own standards. Indeed, I found the general preoccupation (and obsession by some) with testing to be negative. (I wont' go into the details of this either. "Water under the bridge..." and all that.}

I guess rank would be more important if I want to teach. But I don't want to be a "teacher." Do I believe I have skills I can impart? Yes. And I am willing to share whatever level of understanding I think I have if someone is interested. Do I care if the other doesn't accept or disagree with it? No. To each their own and may they discover it through experiences of their own.

More than anything else beyond the subjective, I believe ranking is an exigency of organizations. While there is a need for organizational structures in much of our lives -- my job being one aspect -- I don't want nor need it for, as Panther stated it -- my path.

I have come to realize my commitment to Uechi world has never been (and probably will never be) to the organzation(s) but to certain individuals within. Unless they spurn me for whatever reason, there has never been a need for me to seek additional rank. All I have to do is show up and train.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited March 02, 2001).]

Scaramouche · Post by **Scaramouche** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 1:14 am

"in order to teach, you need rank and certification because: 1) the public (and now the legal system) expects it..."

Is it actually illegal for people who don't have a black belt to teach martial arts in your state? What happens to people who are highly skilled in styles that don't use belts? Is it simply illegal for them to teach? What sort of legal quality control exists over "legitimizing" people's black belt rank? What happens to people who learned their art in some unregistered back yard or family school? If, for example, someone who immigrated from China or the Philippines who was clearly highly skilled by any standard didn't have a black belt, would he be unable to legally teach in your state?

Thank you

Scaramouche

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 5:54 am

Colin

You are right - the answer isn't simple. I'll give you my own opinions, and I welcome comments from others - particularly those that don't practice "traditional" styles (like maybe the Blauer folks).

Grading is just a specific example of the larger concept of evaluation and certification. In order to get most jobs, you have a minimum level of education you need before you can even apply. In order to teach a class at any facility where expertise is needed and liability is involved, you need a bare minimum set of credentials. In most martial arts styles, the black belt is considered a minimum standard to teach, and the minimum level of education to consider someone as having some "permanence" of knowledge. Additional levels of expertise and types of certification may be needed for higher functions in an organization. And with "rank" comes privileges that you may or may not care to have access to.

Second, evaluation and/or testing are universal methods of motivating individuals. My company evaluates its employees yearly and all pay raises are tied to performance. I just got through evaluating all those that report to me, and I am being evaluated. With those evaluations come plans and goals. With written goals, my employees understand up front what I expect of them. This improves focus and increases productivity. In martial arts the testing is a way to get people to learn material and enhance their performance. As I was going up the dan ranks, I would plan all my activities (years ahead) right up to the next dan date. This included weight training cycles, camp visits, and instructor contact. This planned activity really helped me learn the material and stay constantly in shape.

Finally, testing, competition, and scenario training are the closest thing we have to reproducing the stress that someone will undergo in a "real" attack. It's one thing to perform well in the privacy of your home. It's another to do so with people you don't know evaluating you. And a decent test is going to put you through the material in a way that will test your level of expertise under stress (like have you spar someone else at your level). This isn't the best way to test your heart and spirit, but it's one of the better ways to do it without putting your life (or someone else's) in jeopardy.

Hope that helps.

- Bill

david · Post by **david** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 11:10 am

Scaramouche,

There are no laws to this effect in Massachusetts (yet), though I am sure there have been and will be attempts.

With this issue, organizations can and will have significant impact. Perhaps, good stuff can come out like "quality control" of teachers and ranks. At the same time, there will be, IMO, a process towards homogenization and watering down because of "safety" and liability concerns.

At the point of such governmental intrusion, I will seek out the backyard, basement and garage type workouts... These have and will continue to exist. For some, perhaps, this will be better in some ways. This approach was the norm in the bygone days of karate practice in Okinawa. This is the approach of some in mainland China now in face of the the homogenized, state sponsored "wu-shu."

Where there's a will, there's a way.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited March 03, 2001).]