I don't know if anyone has been following the lawsuit by two teens against bowing at Judo competitions, but there has been a ruling. Here are two articles (I hope the links come through OK):
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/xseap/20020111/lo/judo_bowing_1.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134389830_judo11m.html
Any comments on the positions of the opposing sides in this issue? Regardless of the judge's comments in the ruling, does bowing keep people away? Should martial arts competitions, or any other aspect of the martial arts, require bowing as manditory?
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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
Bowing
Moderator: Available
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Stryke
Bowing
This is the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen , Why would anyone insist on anyone doing anything they are uncomfortable with ? , As long as one does not show disrespect they should be eligable , Ones attitude conveys respect , not some formalised ritual ... would the japanese have issue with this ? , personally i doubt it .
what small minds some martal arts develop?
rant off ...
just stunned
what small minds some martal arts develop?
rant off ...
just stunned
Bowing
Stryke-sama,
Sorry to have to disagree, but I feel strongly that the Japanese WOULD disagree and feel it IS mandatory as the Kodokan, the ruling body in international Judo as well as the IOC, both REQUIRE a Rei (bow) before Hajime! (begin) is called in tournament.
I studied Judo for three years in my misspent youth, a year of Aikido (Hombu, before O-Sensei Ueyeshiba passed away), two years of Tang Soo Do, 14 years of karate and 1 year of Tenshin-Shinyo Jujitsu before my knees and hip made the decision to retire for me. Respect, in the form of the Rei (either in zazen or standing) was a requirement of each of these arts.
Personally, would YOU fight in the ring against someone who was not polite enough to shake hands in a boxing or wrestling match?
How safe would you feel knowing that the other guy doesn't even follow the general tenets of good sportsmanly conduct?
Could you trust him not to foul you and maybe injure or kill you with an illegal blow or other technique? Could you trust him to release you if you should tap out?
The street is one thing. No rules, just survival.
The ring, or the mat, is a place where sportsmanship and mannerly conduct should be required. If not, it's not sportsmanly, by definition.
I can understand the shift to a standing bow, as some religions do not allow one to kneel to anyone but Deity, but a standing bow is nothing more than a sign of respect, whether to the originator of a sport, like Jigoro Kano with Judo, to your referee or to your worthy opponent.
Showing respect to someone is a large part of what separates sport from combat, IMHO.
If someone has a problem with showing respect, then they will probably have trouble honoring the rules.
And THAT is unsafe.
IMHO, it's not a matter of small minds, but a matter of increasing the person's ability to understand that other people count, too and should be respected as people.
Just my opinion, of course.
Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, semi-retired)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stryke:
This is the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen , Why would anyone insist on anyone doing anything they are uncomfortable with ? , As long as one does not show disrespect they should be eligable , Ones attitude conveys respect , not some formalised ritual ... would the japanese have issue with this ? , personally i doubt it .
what small minds some martal arts develop?
rant off ...
just stunned<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry to have to disagree, but I feel strongly that the Japanese WOULD disagree and feel it IS mandatory as the Kodokan, the ruling body in international Judo as well as the IOC, both REQUIRE a Rei (bow) before Hajime! (begin) is called in tournament.
I studied Judo for three years in my misspent youth, a year of Aikido (Hombu, before O-Sensei Ueyeshiba passed away), two years of Tang Soo Do, 14 years of karate and 1 year of Tenshin-Shinyo Jujitsu before my knees and hip made the decision to retire for me. Respect, in the form of the Rei (either in zazen or standing) was a requirement of each of these arts.
Personally, would YOU fight in the ring against someone who was not polite enough to shake hands in a boxing or wrestling match?
How safe would you feel knowing that the other guy doesn't even follow the general tenets of good sportsmanly conduct?
Could you trust him not to foul you and maybe injure or kill you with an illegal blow or other technique? Could you trust him to release you if you should tap out?
The street is one thing. No rules, just survival.
The ring, or the mat, is a place where sportsmanship and mannerly conduct should be required. If not, it's not sportsmanly, by definition.
I can understand the shift to a standing bow, as some religions do not allow one to kneel to anyone but Deity, but a standing bow is nothing more than a sign of respect, whether to the originator of a sport, like Jigoro Kano with Judo, to your referee or to your worthy opponent.
Showing respect to someone is a large part of what separates sport from combat, IMHO.
If someone has a problem with showing respect, then they will probably have trouble honoring the rules.
And THAT is unsafe.
IMHO, it's not a matter of small minds, but a matter of increasing the person's ability to understand that other people count, too and should be respected as people.
Just my opinion, of course.
Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, semi-retired)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stryke:
This is the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen , Why would anyone insist on anyone doing anything they are uncomfortable with ? , As long as one does not show disrespect they should be eligable , Ones attitude conveys respect , not some formalised ritual ... would the japanese have issue with this ? , personally i doubt it .
what small minds some martal arts develop?
rant off ...
just stunned<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bowing
Mr. Darrow,
Some questions to ponder though:
1. What if your opponent was willing to shake hands instead of bow before the match? Would you still be concerned about his/her conduct and sportsmanship if he/she was offering another form of respect in place of one in which he/she did not believe? (And I don't know that is the case in the situation being reported, I'm going for hypothetical here).
2. Does bowing truly indicate trust and sportsmanship. Seems to me someone could be completely untrustworthy and still perform the required bowing just so he/she could compete.
3. Turning #2 around, can it ever be truly respectful if you only bow because you have to bow to compete?
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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
Some questions to ponder though:
1. What if your opponent was willing to shake hands instead of bow before the match? Would you still be concerned about his/her conduct and sportsmanship if he/she was offering another form of respect in place of one in which he/she did not believe? (And I don't know that is the case in the situation being reported, I'm going for hypothetical here).
2. Does bowing truly indicate trust and sportsmanship. Seems to me someone could be completely untrustworthy and still perform the required bowing just so he/she could compete.
3. Turning #2 around, can it ever be truly respectful if you only bow because you have to bow to compete?
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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
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Allen M.
Bowing
What it comes down to is someone doesn't want to follow rules and have it his way.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bowing
Please read the articles carefully. The yahoo article states <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I've dealt with this whole thing before in my classes, and can tell you stories about individual students (and former instructors) who had a major problem with the picture business. Basically I do not have a "Shomen" in class with pictures of the "Grand Poobahs." The Uechi ceremony has one bowing and clapping before the pictures of dead leaders. That is a Shinto ritual. While I have no problem doing it (to keep the peace) when in someone else's dojo, I refuse to make my students do it as they may potentially have religious beliefs that conflict with the tradition. Instead, we do a bow-in ceremony in a big circle in my class (clapping and all), and I explain to everyone beforehand that it's tradition based on religious superstitions.
Bowing or shaking hands or touching gloves with an opponent before starting a match is one thing. The pictures and what not are something entirely different.
- Bill
The Seattle Times article states <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteRequiring judo contestants to bow to the mat before a picture of the founder of the Japanese martial art does not violate freedom of religion, a federal judge has ruled.
Bowing to your opponent is one thing. Bowing to pictures of dead people is entirely different. To some extent, I have to agree that this borders on being a religious ritual.mandatory bowing to inanimate objects such as the tatami equated to religious discrimination under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
I've dealt with this whole thing before in my classes, and can tell you stories about individual students (and former instructors) who had a major problem with the picture business. Basically I do not have a "Shomen" in class with pictures of the "Grand Poobahs." The Uechi ceremony has one bowing and clapping before the pictures of dead leaders. That is a Shinto ritual. While I have no problem doing it (to keep the peace) when in someone else's dojo, I refuse to make my students do it as they may potentially have religious beliefs that conflict with the tradition. Instead, we do a bow-in ceremony in a big circle in my class (clapping and all), and I explain to everyone beforehand that it's tradition based on religious superstitions.
Bowing or shaking hands or touching gloves with an opponent before starting a match is one thing. The pictures and what not are something entirely different.
- Bill
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Stryke
Bowing
Mr Darrow i agree to disagree 
Aye this is really a pet peave , what does a ritual have to do with respect or sportmanship IN OUR CULTURE .
This to me is exzactly the same as a high ranking belt DEMANDING RESPECT , for a peice of rag rappped around his waist .
Respect is earnt by action, deed, and genuinenss
Respect is shown by displaying the correct attitude , not some rituall .
If we cant respect others beliefs , or even differences of opinion doe`s where does that leave us ? .
I truly dont know what the japanese would make of this , perhaps there culture would not allow such FREEDOM as to choose how to express oneself .
Some religons frown on meditation , would you deny a student to train with you because he refused to take part in meditation at the end of class ?
would you find it disrespectful ?
what i find disrespectful is , a disregard for others beliefs , values , and opinions , i might not agree but dont we have to agree to disagree and work on the commonalities ? .
I bow because it is no problem to me , I do it with sencerity , I know people who do not and do it because its a ritual .
should i refuse to compete , train , trust these people because they see the ritual as meaningless ? .
anyway a few more thoughts .
HA a few ???
Stryke
Oh yeah would i compete against someone , who wouldnt shake my hand , or showed a lack of respect , Have done , It does`nt make someone more dangerous , to be honest it just fires me up to there detriment .
[This message has been edited by Stryke (edited January 14, 2002).]
Aye this is really a pet peave , what does a ritual have to do with respect or sportmanship IN OUR CULTURE .
This to me is exzactly the same as a high ranking belt DEMANDING RESPECT , for a peice of rag rappped around his waist .
Respect is earnt by action, deed, and genuinenss
Respect is shown by displaying the correct attitude , not some rituall .
If we cant respect others beliefs , or even differences of opinion doe`s where does that leave us ? .
I truly dont know what the japanese would make of this , perhaps there culture would not allow such FREEDOM as to choose how to express oneself .
Some religons frown on meditation , would you deny a student to train with you because he refused to take part in meditation at the end of class ?
would you find it disrespectful ?
what i find disrespectful is , a disregard for others beliefs , values , and opinions , i might not agree but dont we have to agree to disagree and work on the commonalities ? .
I bow because it is no problem to me , I do it with sencerity , I know people who do not and do it because its a ritual .
should i refuse to compete , train , trust these people because they see the ritual as meaningless ? .
anyway a few more thoughts .
HA a few ???
Stryke
Oh yeah would i compete against someone , who wouldnt shake my hand , or showed a lack of respect , Have done , It does`nt make someone more dangerous , to be honest it just fires me up to there detriment .
[This message has been edited by Stryke (edited January 14, 2002).]
Bowing
Dr. Glasheen raises a good point that the central issue seems to be bowing to a picture of Kano instead of bowing to an opponent, although the press has generally presented it as the teens having an issue against bowing in general.
This case has been discussed on CyberDojo and there was quite a few expressing the attitude that the student/competitor should follow whatever rules are established for the dojo/tournament and has no right to question them, and if participation in a particular activity involves certain features that goes against their religious beliefs then they should look for a different activity. In other words, if I say you have to bow to a picture to train with me or compete at my event, then you either do so or go elsewhere.
However this whole issue and the various responses expressed both here and on the CyberDojo beg the question of why do we have certain rituals in the martial arts. Let's face it, you go to any dojo or event and you will encounter what I call "ritual karate". Karate is no where near as exclusive as it once was. It has spread throughout the world to many different cultures and religions. So why do American, German, Israeli, Kenyan, Argentinian, Russian, Australian, etc. karate-ka bow to pictures and each other, wear a uniform, practice barefoot, and speak Japanese? Do any of these really improve our ability to learn the style, self-defense, and/or tournament fighting?
Personally I think that karate and self-defense training is best done in what you normally wear. Kicking in snow boots is quite a bit different than kicking in bare feet. A loose-fitting uniform helps make techniques look crisp and clean in the dojo, but will I be able to do them as well wearing a more constricting coat and pants? And while my punch/kick might be great at knocking someone down in a tournament, will it be effective against an assailant who happens to be dressed for -20 windchills?
Why do we wear Japanese-style uniforms and belts and speak Japanese? I'm guessing Uechi Kanbun dressed and spoke Chinese when he was learning under Zhou, shouldn't we be wearing Chinese-style uniforms and speaking Chinese when we train? To me it seems just as logical.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a geographer by training and have always been fascinated by and interested in other places and cultures, and that is part of what got me into the martial arts. But I think we have to ask ourselves how much these rituals really help our training and how much we want to force them at the expense of excluding certain would-be students, many of whom could probably benefit from the training if the environment was more inclusive.
Just my thoughts/opinions.
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Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
This case has been discussed on CyberDojo and there was quite a few expressing the attitude that the student/competitor should follow whatever rules are established for the dojo/tournament and has no right to question them, and if participation in a particular activity involves certain features that goes against their religious beliefs then they should look for a different activity. In other words, if I say you have to bow to a picture to train with me or compete at my event, then you either do so or go elsewhere.
However this whole issue and the various responses expressed both here and on the CyberDojo beg the question of why do we have certain rituals in the martial arts. Let's face it, you go to any dojo or event and you will encounter what I call "ritual karate". Karate is no where near as exclusive as it once was. It has spread throughout the world to many different cultures and religions. So why do American, German, Israeli, Kenyan, Argentinian, Russian, Australian, etc. karate-ka bow to pictures and each other, wear a uniform, practice barefoot, and speak Japanese? Do any of these really improve our ability to learn the style, self-defense, and/or tournament fighting?
Personally I think that karate and self-defense training is best done in what you normally wear. Kicking in snow boots is quite a bit different than kicking in bare feet. A loose-fitting uniform helps make techniques look crisp and clean in the dojo, but will I be able to do them as well wearing a more constricting coat and pants? And while my punch/kick might be great at knocking someone down in a tournament, will it be effective against an assailant who happens to be dressed for -20 windchills?
Why do we wear Japanese-style uniforms and belts and speak Japanese? I'm guessing Uechi Kanbun dressed and spoke Chinese when he was learning under Zhou, shouldn't we be wearing Chinese-style uniforms and speaking Chinese when we train? To me it seems just as logical.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a geographer by training and have always been fascinated by and interested in other places and cultures, and that is part of what got me into the martial arts. But I think we have to ask ourselves how much these rituals really help our training and how much we want to force them at the expense of excluding certain would-be students, many of whom could probably benefit from the training if the environment was more inclusive.
Just my thoughts/opinions.
------------------
Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
Bowing
Comments follow -
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glenn:
Mr. Darrow,
Some questions to ponder though:
1. What if your opponent was willing to shake hands instead of bow before the match? Would you still be concerned about his/her conduct and sportsmanship if he/she was offering another form of respect in place of one in which he/she did not believe? (And I don't know that is the case in the situation being reported, I'm going for hypothetical here).
2. Does bowing truly indicate trust and sportsmanship. Seems to me someone could be completely untrustworthy and still perform the required bowing just so he/she could compete.
3. Turning #2 around, can it ever be truly respectful if you only bow because you have to bow to compete?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glenn-sama,
First, thanks for a considerate and well put reply and sset of provocative questions. I had to think about it a bit before replying (that and get over a case of the stomach flu, but that's not important now)
In answer to your first question, No, I would not have any problem with that at all. It's the idea that they are willing to show respect in some form that's important to me. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
In answer to the second,you are right, of course. Shamming respect has happened in the ring. In fact I have had it happen TO me. But I still feel that the probability is lower when respect is shown.
On your third question, hard to say. Sometimes, one follows social form simply because it is expected and polite to do so.
As was pointed out by a later poster, some of this has to do with some people wanting things theri own way instead of having to follow the rules in the home which they are visiting, or the school they are studying at.
More later in a reply to another post.
Thanks again. I had to stretch my brain a bit on this one.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glenn:
Mr. Darrow,
Some questions to ponder though:
1. What if your opponent was willing to shake hands instead of bow before the match? Would you still be concerned about his/her conduct and sportsmanship if he/she was offering another form of respect in place of one in which he/she did not believe? (And I don't know that is the case in the situation being reported, I'm going for hypothetical here).
2. Does bowing truly indicate trust and sportsmanship. Seems to me someone could be completely untrustworthy and still perform the required bowing just so he/she could compete.
3. Turning #2 around, can it ever be truly respectful if you only bow because you have to bow to compete?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glenn-sama,
First, thanks for a considerate and well put reply and sset of provocative questions. I had to think about it a bit before replying (that and get over a case of the stomach flu, but that's not important now)
In answer to your first question, No, I would not have any problem with that at all. It's the idea that they are willing to show respect in some form that's important to me. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
In answer to the second,you are right, of course. Shamming respect has happened in the ring. In fact I have had it happen TO me. But I still feel that the probability is lower when respect is shown.
On your third question, hard to say. Sometimes, one follows social form simply because it is expected and polite to do so.
As was pointed out by a later poster, some of this has to do with some people wanting things theri own way instead of having to follow the rules in the home which they are visiting, or the school they are studying at.
More later in a reply to another post.
Thanks again. I had to stretch my brain a bit on this one.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Bowing
Comments interspersed, noted with a">" for clarity.
>Thanks for the reply, Stryke-sama. Good thoughts and ideas, even if we may disagree a bit here and there. Let's see...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stryke:
Mr Darrow i agree to disagree
Aye this is really a pet peave , what does a ritual have to do with respect or sportmanship IN OUR CULTURE .
>You mean like shaking hands before a boxing match, shaking hands after a tennis match or buying a round after a hole-in-one? Two of those, if not done, will cost you a match or a championship. Our rituals in our culture are less formalized, but they exist and are just as important. How do you feel when someone refuses to shake your hand? That's breaking a ritual and it causes distress. QED.
This to me is exzactly the same as a high ranking belt DEMANDING RESPECT , for a peice of rag rappped around his waist .
Respect is earnt by action, deed, and genuinenss
>And earning that rank is not worthy of respect in and of itself until such time as the individual wearing it shows themself to be unworthy of respect? Isn't accomplishment worthy of some respect? I'm asking honestly, not as a flame here. I do want to know your thoughts on this aspect of the equation.
Respect is shown by displaying the correct attitude , not some rituall .
>And to show that respect, some ritual occurs, whether it is the shaking of hands, the bowing to someone, nodding of the head, which is a short bow of sorts, or a greeting in the proper form (Good Morning, Miss Brooks). One displays proper attitude by showing, by body language and verbally, that they respect the person. Most of those responses are ritualized to some extent, but are so deeply ingrained in our culture that they are outside our normal consciousness. Like saying "excuse me" when you bump into someone (a ritual response to an action) or using "please" and "thank you" or "God Bless You" in others. All of these are ritualized responses or openings. I guess it depends on how one defines ritual.
If we cant respect others beliefs , or even differences of opinion doe`s where does that leave us ? .
>Respecting someone else's culture is all well and fine, but isn't that a two-way street? A student is in the home (school) of the teacher. His (or her) home, his (or her) rules should be the deciding factor. There are many schools. Shouldn't the respect go both ways and the flexing be double-ended? Why is it that it is the person who sets the rules who is always challenged and forced to flex as opposed to the challenger being "forced" to comply, when it is simply a matter of being cognizant of and applying the expected?
>When we study an asian MA, we are taking a step into a different culture. Perhaps it is part of a learning experience to learn and apply what is thought to be a sign of respect in THEIR culture and, by doing so, broaden our own horizons?
I truly dont know what the japanese would make of this , perhaps there culture would not allow such FREEDOM as to choose how to express oneself .
>Given some of the traditional Japanese Sensei I have seen, you don't bow, you are out the door. Period. And, in their culture it is not a matter of freedom to express ones'self, it is a respect not only for your opponent, those who came before you and the style, but for the tradition of the Art you study. At least that's what I was taught, many years ago.
Some religons frown on meditation , would you deny a student to train with you because he refused to take part in meditation at the end of class ?
>No. IF the student voiced it in those terms. Otherwise, I would find it rather odd.
would you find it disrespectful ?
>Only if their attitude was disrespectful.
what i find disrespectful is , a disregard for others beliefs , values , and opinions , i might not agree but dont we have to agree to disagree and work on the commonalities ? .
>Isn't this what the Plaintiffs in this case were doing, then - disregarding the beliefs, values and opinions of others? Personally, I feel that the showing of respect in the traditional manner is a part of the Art. It is a step into another culture. It is showing respect for the values of THAT culture, which you have voluntarily stepped in to when you walked into the dojo/dojang/kwoon. Again, I have to ask - why does the school have to flex?
>Many Sensei state that "This is not a deomcracy (their dojo)" and the rules are for everyone. While I don't necessarily agree with all of that, it is a matter of interest that most people today refuse to flex beyond their own prejudices. IMHO, their (the Plaintiffs) refusal to bow reflects a prejudice of the same kind that they are claiming the schools (or in this instance the AAU Judo folks) are being accused of. If the shoe fits .... and shoes come in pairs.
I bow because it is no problem to me , I do it with sencerity , I know people who do not and do it because its a ritual .
should i refuse to compete , train , trust these people because they see the ritual as meaningless ? .
>Only if they show themselves to be untrustworthy. At least they show enough respect to follow the traditions of the school. That is a start in my book.
anyway a few more thoughts .
HA a few ???
Stryke
Oh yeah would i compete against someone , who wouldnt shake my hand , or showed a lack of respect , Have done , It does`nt make someone more dangerous , to be honest it just fires me up to there detriment .
>I did that just once. It cost me two cracked ribs and a greenstick fracture of the left arm in a no-contact tournament. Nuff Said on that issue.
[This message has been edited by Stryke (edited January 14, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, thanks for your thought provoking post. You really made me think. I appreciate that!
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
>Thanks for the reply, Stryke-sama. Good thoughts and ideas, even if we may disagree a bit here and there. Let's see...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stryke:
Mr Darrow i agree to disagree
Aye this is really a pet peave , what does a ritual have to do with respect or sportmanship IN OUR CULTURE .
>You mean like shaking hands before a boxing match, shaking hands after a tennis match or buying a round after a hole-in-one? Two of those, if not done, will cost you a match or a championship. Our rituals in our culture are less formalized, but they exist and are just as important. How do you feel when someone refuses to shake your hand? That's breaking a ritual and it causes distress. QED.
This to me is exzactly the same as a high ranking belt DEMANDING RESPECT , for a peice of rag rappped around his waist .
Respect is earnt by action, deed, and genuinenss
>And earning that rank is not worthy of respect in and of itself until such time as the individual wearing it shows themself to be unworthy of respect? Isn't accomplishment worthy of some respect? I'm asking honestly, not as a flame here. I do want to know your thoughts on this aspect of the equation.
Respect is shown by displaying the correct attitude , not some rituall .
>And to show that respect, some ritual occurs, whether it is the shaking of hands, the bowing to someone, nodding of the head, which is a short bow of sorts, or a greeting in the proper form (Good Morning, Miss Brooks). One displays proper attitude by showing, by body language and verbally, that they respect the person. Most of those responses are ritualized to some extent, but are so deeply ingrained in our culture that they are outside our normal consciousness. Like saying "excuse me" when you bump into someone (a ritual response to an action) or using "please" and "thank you" or "God Bless You" in others. All of these are ritualized responses or openings. I guess it depends on how one defines ritual.
If we cant respect others beliefs , or even differences of opinion doe`s where does that leave us ? .
>Respecting someone else's culture is all well and fine, but isn't that a two-way street? A student is in the home (school) of the teacher. His (or her) home, his (or her) rules should be the deciding factor. There are many schools. Shouldn't the respect go both ways and the flexing be double-ended? Why is it that it is the person who sets the rules who is always challenged and forced to flex as opposed to the challenger being "forced" to comply, when it is simply a matter of being cognizant of and applying the expected?
>When we study an asian MA, we are taking a step into a different culture. Perhaps it is part of a learning experience to learn and apply what is thought to be a sign of respect in THEIR culture and, by doing so, broaden our own horizons?
I truly dont know what the japanese would make of this , perhaps there culture would not allow such FREEDOM as to choose how to express oneself .
>Given some of the traditional Japanese Sensei I have seen, you don't bow, you are out the door. Period. And, in their culture it is not a matter of freedom to express ones'self, it is a respect not only for your opponent, those who came before you and the style, but for the tradition of the Art you study. At least that's what I was taught, many years ago.
Some religons frown on meditation , would you deny a student to train with you because he refused to take part in meditation at the end of class ?
>No. IF the student voiced it in those terms. Otherwise, I would find it rather odd.
would you find it disrespectful ?
>Only if their attitude was disrespectful.
what i find disrespectful is , a disregard for others beliefs , values , and opinions , i might not agree but dont we have to agree to disagree and work on the commonalities ? .
>Isn't this what the Plaintiffs in this case were doing, then - disregarding the beliefs, values and opinions of others? Personally, I feel that the showing of respect in the traditional manner is a part of the Art. It is a step into another culture. It is showing respect for the values of THAT culture, which you have voluntarily stepped in to when you walked into the dojo/dojang/kwoon. Again, I have to ask - why does the school have to flex?
>Many Sensei state that "This is not a deomcracy (their dojo)" and the rules are for everyone. While I don't necessarily agree with all of that, it is a matter of interest that most people today refuse to flex beyond their own prejudices. IMHO, their (the Plaintiffs) refusal to bow reflects a prejudice of the same kind that they are claiming the schools (or in this instance the AAU Judo folks) are being accused of. If the shoe fits .... and shoes come in pairs.
I bow because it is no problem to me , I do it with sencerity , I know people who do not and do it because its a ritual .
should i refuse to compete , train , trust these people because they see the ritual as meaningless ? .
>Only if they show themselves to be untrustworthy. At least they show enough respect to follow the traditions of the school. That is a start in my book.
anyway a few more thoughts .
HA a few ???
Stryke
Oh yeah would i compete against someone , who wouldnt shake my hand , or showed a lack of respect , Have done , It does`nt make someone more dangerous , to be honest it just fires me up to there detriment .
>I did that just once. It cost me two cracked ribs and a greenstick fracture of the left arm in a no-contact tournament. Nuff Said on that issue.
[This message has been edited by Stryke (edited January 14, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, thanks for your thought provoking post. You really made me think. I appreciate that!
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
-
Stryke
Bowing
Thank you for the reply Mr Darrow hope your feeling better . have added my sesponses **
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Stryke:
Mr Darrow i agree to disagree
Aye this is really a pet peave , what does a ritual have to do with respect or sportmanship IN OUR CULTURE .
>You mean like shaking hands before a boxing match, shaking hands after a tennis match or buying a round after a hole-in-one? Two of those, if not done, will cost you a match or a championship. Our rituals in our culture are less formalized, but they exist and are just as important. How do you feel when someone refuses to shake your hand? That's breaking a ritual and it causes distress. QED.
** I agree that some form of respect should be shown , I would not be offended if someone decide to bow to me after a tennis match , or just acnowledged there thanks for the game verbally , I see this as not being bound to the ritual but as a personall expression .
This to me is exzactly the same as a high ranking belt DEMANDING RESPECT , for a peice of rag rappped around his waist .
Respect is earnt by action, deed, and genuinenss
>And earning that rank is not worthy of respect in and of itself until such time as the individual wearing it shows themself to be unworthy of respect? Isn't accomplishment worthy of some respect? I'm asking honestly, not as a flame here. I do want to know your thoughts on this aspect of the equation.
** hard work is worthy of respect , and hopefully most of the time Grades show this so yes in part they are due respect , Having said that I feel a hard working white belt is due just as much respect . I believe all individuals are deserving of equal respect until they proove otherwise .
Respect is shown by displaying the correct attitude , not some rituall .
>And to show that respect, some ritual occurs, whether it is the shaking of hands, the bowing to someone, nodding of the head, which is a short bow of sorts, or a greeting in the proper form (Good Morning, Miss Brooks). One displays proper attitude by showing, by body language and verbally, that they respect the person. Most of those responses are ritualized to some extent, but are so deeply ingrained in our culture that they are outside our normal consciousness. Like saying "excuse me" when you bump into someone (a ritual response to an action) or using "please" and "thank you" or "God Bless You" in others. All of these are ritualized responses or openings. I guess it depends on how one defines ritual.
** I agree this comes down to the definition of ritual , the difference i see is my culture is an alive changing one, Im not confined to express myself in one way i can choose to show my intent , hey i can even create a new ritual .( waves his little finger with a smile in a new gesture of appreciative intellectual discusion )
If we cant respect others beliefs , or even differences of opinion doe`s where does that leave us ? .
>Respecting someone else's culture is all well and fine, but isn't that a two-way street? A student is in the home (school) of the teacher. His (or her) home, his (or her) rules should be the deciding factor. There are many schools. Shouldn't the respect go both ways and the flexing be double-ended? Why is it that it is the person who sets the rules who is always challenged and forced to flex as opposed to the challenger being "forced" to comply, when it is simply a matter of being cognizant of and applying the expected?
** of course one is able to set there own rules and bondarys , but this is where my personal philosophy comes into it and confuses the whole situation , I believe In living by virtues and values rather than set rules , I fail to see that doing something a differnet way has a negative effect on you .
>When we study an asian MA, we are taking a step into a different culture. Perhaps it is part of a learning experience to learn and apply what is thought to be a sign of respect in THEIR culture and, by doing so, broaden our own horizons?
** a very valid point , I agree i would be possibly miss out on something if i dis not look into the cultural aspect of it , but then again if i felt it infringed on my personnal religous beliefs I would be happier to just read about it than try to copy it .
I truly dont know what the japanese would make of this , perhaps there culture would not allow such FREEDOM as to choose how to express oneself .
>Given some of the traditional Japanese Sensei I have seen, you don't bow, you are out the door. Period. And, in their culture it is not a matter of freedom to express ones'self, it is a respect not only for your opponent, those who came before you and the style, but for the tradition of the Art you study. At least that's what I was taught, many years ago.
Some religons frown on meditation , would you deny a student to train with you because he refused to take part in meditation at the end of class ?
>No. IF the student voiced it in those terms. Otherwise, I would find it rather odd.
** Yea perhaps odd but I love diversity , All our little ecentricitys make life great .
would you find it disrespectful ?
>Only if their attitude was disrespectful.
** this is my point , we totally agree here .
what i find disrespectful is , a disregard for others beliefs , values , and opinions , i might not agree but dont we have to agree to disagree and work on the commonalities ? .
>Isn't this what the Plaintiffs in this case were doing, then - disregarding the beliefs, values and opinions of others? Personally, I feel that the showing of respect in the traditional manner is a part of the Art. It is a step into another culture. It is showing respect for the values of THAT culture, which you have voluntarily stepped in to when you walked into the dojo/dojang/kwoon. Again, I have to ask - why does the school have to flex?
** Absolutley not , I dont see the plantiffs saying this is evil no one should do it , all i see is them saying this is contrary to my beliefs do i have to do this ? .
>Many Sensei state that "This is not a deomcracy (their dojo)" and the rules are for everyone. While I don't necessarily agree with all of that, it is a matter of interest that most people today refuse to flex beyond their own prejudices. IMHO, their (the Plaintiffs) refusal to bow reflects a prejudice of the same kind that they are claiming the schools (or in this instance the AAU Judo folks) are being accused of. If the shoe fits .... and shoes come in pairs.
** good argument , But i ask is it really that serious ? , If it is then is it really just a ritual , or does it have some deeper significance , surely theres an aspect of religous freedom to ones expression .
I bow because it is no problem to me , I do it with sencerity , I know people who do not and do it because its a ritual .
should i refuse to compete , train , trust these people because they see the ritual as meaningless ? .
>Only if they show themselves to be untrustworthy. At least they show enough respect to follow the traditions of the school. That is a start in my book.
** hmm so your willing to give the benifit of the doubt to people for the sake of conformity ? , when one doe`nt conform he becomes less trustworthy ? .
Thanks for the discussion
Stryke
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Stryke:
Mr Darrow i agree to disagree
Aye this is really a pet peave , what does a ritual have to do with respect or sportmanship IN OUR CULTURE .
>You mean like shaking hands before a boxing match, shaking hands after a tennis match or buying a round after a hole-in-one? Two of those, if not done, will cost you a match or a championship. Our rituals in our culture are less formalized, but they exist and are just as important. How do you feel when someone refuses to shake your hand? That's breaking a ritual and it causes distress. QED.
** I agree that some form of respect should be shown , I would not be offended if someone decide to bow to me after a tennis match , or just acnowledged there thanks for the game verbally , I see this as not being bound to the ritual but as a personall expression .
This to me is exzactly the same as a high ranking belt DEMANDING RESPECT , for a peice of rag rappped around his waist .
Respect is earnt by action, deed, and genuinenss
>And earning that rank is not worthy of respect in and of itself until such time as the individual wearing it shows themself to be unworthy of respect? Isn't accomplishment worthy of some respect? I'm asking honestly, not as a flame here. I do want to know your thoughts on this aspect of the equation.
** hard work is worthy of respect , and hopefully most of the time Grades show this so yes in part they are due respect , Having said that I feel a hard working white belt is due just as much respect . I believe all individuals are deserving of equal respect until they proove otherwise .
Respect is shown by displaying the correct attitude , not some rituall .
>And to show that respect, some ritual occurs, whether it is the shaking of hands, the bowing to someone, nodding of the head, which is a short bow of sorts, or a greeting in the proper form (Good Morning, Miss Brooks). One displays proper attitude by showing, by body language and verbally, that they respect the person. Most of those responses are ritualized to some extent, but are so deeply ingrained in our culture that they are outside our normal consciousness. Like saying "excuse me" when you bump into someone (a ritual response to an action) or using "please" and "thank you" or "God Bless You" in others. All of these are ritualized responses or openings. I guess it depends on how one defines ritual.
** I agree this comes down to the definition of ritual , the difference i see is my culture is an alive changing one, Im not confined to express myself in one way i can choose to show my intent , hey i can even create a new ritual .( waves his little finger with a smile in a new gesture of appreciative intellectual discusion
)If we cant respect others beliefs , or even differences of opinion doe`s where does that leave us ? .
>Respecting someone else's culture is all well and fine, but isn't that a two-way street? A student is in the home (school) of the teacher. His (or her) home, his (or her) rules should be the deciding factor. There are many schools. Shouldn't the respect go both ways and the flexing be double-ended? Why is it that it is the person who sets the rules who is always challenged and forced to flex as opposed to the challenger being "forced" to comply, when it is simply a matter of being cognizant of and applying the expected?
** of course one is able to set there own rules and bondarys , but this is where my personal philosophy comes into it and confuses the whole situation , I believe In living by virtues and values rather than set rules , I fail to see that doing something a differnet way has a negative effect on you .
>When we study an asian MA, we are taking a step into a different culture. Perhaps it is part of a learning experience to learn and apply what is thought to be a sign of respect in THEIR culture and, by doing so, broaden our own horizons?
** a very valid point , I agree i would be possibly miss out on something if i dis not look into the cultural aspect of it , but then again if i felt it infringed on my personnal religous beliefs I would be happier to just read about it than try to copy it .
I truly dont know what the japanese would make of this , perhaps there culture would not allow such FREEDOM as to choose how to express oneself .
>Given some of the traditional Japanese Sensei I have seen, you don't bow, you are out the door. Period. And, in their culture it is not a matter of freedom to express ones'self, it is a respect not only for your opponent, those who came before you and the style, but for the tradition of the Art you study. At least that's what I was taught, many years ago.
Some religons frown on meditation , would you deny a student to train with you because he refused to take part in meditation at the end of class ?
>No. IF the student voiced it in those terms. Otherwise, I would find it rather odd.
** Yea perhaps odd but I love diversity , All our little ecentricitys make life great .
would you find it disrespectful ?
>Only if their attitude was disrespectful.
** this is my point , we totally agree here .
what i find disrespectful is , a disregard for others beliefs , values , and opinions , i might not agree but dont we have to agree to disagree and work on the commonalities ? .
>Isn't this what the Plaintiffs in this case were doing, then - disregarding the beliefs, values and opinions of others? Personally, I feel that the showing of respect in the traditional manner is a part of the Art. It is a step into another culture. It is showing respect for the values of THAT culture, which you have voluntarily stepped in to when you walked into the dojo/dojang/kwoon. Again, I have to ask - why does the school have to flex?
** Absolutley not , I dont see the plantiffs saying this is evil no one should do it , all i see is them saying this is contrary to my beliefs do i have to do this ? .
>Many Sensei state that "This is not a deomcracy (their dojo)" and the rules are for everyone. While I don't necessarily agree with all of that, it is a matter of interest that most people today refuse to flex beyond their own prejudices. IMHO, their (the Plaintiffs) refusal to bow reflects a prejudice of the same kind that they are claiming the schools (or in this instance the AAU Judo folks) are being accused of. If the shoe fits .... and shoes come in pairs.
** good argument , But i ask is it really that serious ? , If it is then is it really just a ritual , or does it have some deeper significance , surely theres an aspect of religous freedom to ones expression .
I bow because it is no problem to me , I do it with sencerity , I know people who do not and do it because its a ritual .
should i refuse to compete , train , trust these people because they see the ritual as meaningless ? .
>Only if they show themselves to be untrustworthy. At least they show enough respect to follow the traditions of the school. That is a start in my book.
** hmm so your willing to give the benifit of the doubt to people for the sake of conformity ? , when one doe`nt conform he becomes less trustworthy ? .
Thanks for the discussion
Stryke
Bowing
Now I'll toss in the following: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134375614_judo07m0.html
Note that this is an earlier article from before the judge's ruling.
This article contains additional info not included in the articles about the judge's ruling. It also contains two statements that makes me question why both sides have been fighting as hard and as long as they have.
1. The president of the U.S. Judo Association discribes the bow as "simple courtesy" and a "trivial element of the sport", yet his organization and two others have spent $150,000 and four years defending this "trivial element". (Although note that this president has pulled his organization's financial support for the defense.)
2. The girl hopes to compete in the 2004 Olympics and said that she "might agree to bow if it is the only way to compete for an Olympic medal".
So on the one hand you have the head of an organization down-playing something that it has spent big bucks to defend, and on the other you have a competitor who is considering accepting what she has been fighting against for at least four years in order to try for something she deems as being more important. Clearly from the article the boy does not agree with his sister that some things are more important than the principle for which they have fought, I wonder if the other organizations agree with Bregman's assessment of the bow being so trivial? But still I have to ask, what is the purpose of the fight given the statements quoted above?
------------------
Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
Note that this is an earlier article from before the judge's ruling.
This article contains additional info not included in the articles about the judge's ruling. It also contains two statements that makes me question why both sides have been fighting as hard and as long as they have.
1. The president of the U.S. Judo Association discribes the bow as "simple courtesy" and a "trivial element of the sport", yet his organization and two others have spent $150,000 and four years defending this "trivial element". (Although note that this president has pulled his organization's financial support for the defense.)
2. The girl hopes to compete in the 2004 Olympics and said that she "might agree to bow if it is the only way to compete for an Olympic medal".
So on the one hand you have the head of an organization down-playing something that it has spent big bucks to defend, and on the other you have a competitor who is considering accepting what she has been fighting against for at least four years in order to try for something she deems as being more important. Clearly from the article the boy does not agree with his sister that some things are more important than the principle for which they have fought, I wonder if the other organizations agree with Bregman's assessment of the bow being so trivial? But still I have to ask, what is the purpose of the fight given the statements quoted above?
------------------
Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE
Bowing
I understand why people have had issues with some of the ritual involved in certain martial arts. The problem I have with this suit is this: don't play. I have every right as a private citizen to make students recite John Lennon's Imagine before class.(I don't) If I started a martial art called Hank Do and it became immensely popular(brief pause to roll on the floor laughing) and I wanted to require this before every class, that's my right. If I require it before competition, that's my right. I also understand why some people have a problem with this song. But hey you don't have to study Hank Do, now do you? Why should I be required to change the rules for some people to participate?
And no I am not practicing religious discrimination. They choose not to participate because of their religion. That's different. My wife and I invited Southern Baptists, Muslims and Mormons to our wedding. I was not about to ban alcohol. And how far do you take this? Should people who feel that the uniforms involved in certain sports(judo, basketball, etc.) violate their religious doctrine be allowed to dictate how they can dress? Should they be alowed to dicate how others can dress because they find it offensive?
And if private sports(not governmental bodies) organizations can't dictate these sorts of things, who can? Where do we draw the line? Can a soup kitchen lead a prayer? Can I lead a prayer in my home? Could I turn away my guests if they refused?(Again caveat: this would never happen but I think I should be allowed to choose who eats and in my house so long as I don't neglect my kids.) Can churches choose their members?
Yes, I see that some might take offense at the bow(seems a bit silly to me) but I don't see what gives them the right to sue.(Except of course that sueing doesn't require grounds or cause and there is virtually no penalty for filing frivolous suits in this country.)
That being said, I hope that U.S. Judo changes its stance and allows people who choose not to participate in the bowing for religious reasons. It's a shame that people feel they have to choose between their faith and their passion like this.
[This message has been edited by hsohn (edited January 27, 2002).]
And no I am not practicing religious discrimination. They choose not to participate because of their religion. That's different. My wife and I invited Southern Baptists, Muslims and Mormons to our wedding. I was not about to ban alcohol. And how far do you take this? Should people who feel that the uniforms involved in certain sports(judo, basketball, etc.) violate their religious doctrine be allowed to dictate how they can dress? Should they be alowed to dicate how others can dress because they find it offensive?
And if private sports(not governmental bodies) organizations can't dictate these sorts of things, who can? Where do we draw the line? Can a soup kitchen lead a prayer? Can I lead a prayer in my home? Could I turn away my guests if they refused?(Again caveat: this would never happen but I think I should be allowed to choose who eats and in my house so long as I don't neglect my kids.) Can churches choose their members?
Yes, I see that some might take offense at the bow(seems a bit silly to me) but I don't see what gives them the right to sue.(Except of course that sueing doesn't require grounds or cause and there is virtually no penalty for filing frivolous suits in this country.)
That being said, I hope that U.S. Judo changes its stance and allows people who choose not to participate in the bowing for religious reasons. It's a shame that people feel they have to choose between their faith and their passion like this.
[This message has been edited by hsohn (edited January 27, 2002).]
Bowing
Having been in Japan I know the Japanese would be extremely upset if bowing was not done. Its part of their culture and a sign of disrespect not to.
At one time in Japan if you didnt bow low enough you had your head cut off in an instant!
To me bowing is just the Eastern form of shaking hands except they are more fanatical about it.
To me when in Rome do what Romans do. I dont want to offend people so I accept their culture to practise 'their' art.
I dont want to see Karate Westernised. Its been butchered enough by the West!
At one time in Japan if you didnt bow low enough you had your head cut off in an instant!
To me bowing is just the Eastern form of shaking hands except they are more fanatical about it.
To me when in Rome do what Romans do. I dont want to offend people so I accept their culture to practise 'their' art.
I dont want to see Karate Westernised. Its been butchered enough by the West!
