Lurking...at a Dojo!

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:46 am

I have, on more than one occasion, gone to a Dojo/Dojang/whatever/ just to watch like an innocent bystander. Ok, I've done it a few times. Some were curiosity only, but others were after a bad training night, as a way of re-affirming Uechi Ryu as my choice of martial art, despite its stated (on these forums) shortcomings.
It's very interesting to talk to students who assume you know nothing, just to get their honest perspective on what it is they believe they are learning.
Also interesting to watch practitioners who hold your rank in another style.
I have yet to come away from such a visit without the firm conviction that Uechi Ryu is a complete and realistic compilation of both art and technique for the serious martial artist:"If only I could practise it just a little better!"
This spurs me on to go back to my Dojo and put more responsibility on me, and less on the "style" or my Sensei, for what I can produce.
If those of you who are new to martial arts in general, and Uechi Ryu specifically, have never done this: I suggest you give it a try.
You will likely conclude, as I have done, that you are indeed on the best path--you just have to try harder.
Ok, just venting. I feel better.

david · Post by **david** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 3:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

If those of you who are new to martial arts in general, and Uechi Ryu specifically, have never done this: I suggest you give it a try.

I agree that it's good to check out other places. Better with an open mind. And better yet, get on the floor with them if they're open to it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This spurs me on to go back to my Dojo and put more responsibility on me, and less on the "style" or my Sensei, for what I can produce.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with the gist of this, though a lousy instructor (which is hard to judge by a beginner whose has not been around enough) would certainly impose some limitations. A dedicated student can transcend sometimes (including leaving the dojo).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You will likely conclude, as I have done, that you are indeed on the best path--you just have to try harder.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with the previous and then end disagreeing with this. I guess it depends on what you're judging in your audit. There are some very talented, committed practitioners out there in almost every style. Your/our path may be "Uechi-Ryu" but that doesn't make it the *best* in the absolute. Perhaps on a relative level for the individual. Get on the floor and face someone dedicated and talented in his/her style, you will let the notion of "best style" drop from your thinking. There's only good and bad martial arts practitioners rather than styles.

david

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Your/our path may be "Uechi-Ryu" but that doesn't make it the *best* in the absolute. Perhaps on a relative level for the individual. Get on the floor and face someone dedicated and talented in his/her style, you will let the notion of "best style" drop from your thinking. There are only good and bad martial arts practitioners rather than styles.

Well said. One thing we should never do is to think in absolutes. As it will self deceive and send signals of "arrogance" when in mixed martial company.

I remember a few misguided souls who kept preaching to me "we can block anything" then having their heads handed over to them by TKD kicks they had never tried to block before.

As David says, first get on the floor with some of the other styles, and then accept the fact that there is no superior style, only superior practitioners.

Getting on the floor with different size and weight practitioners, teaches the lesson further, regardless of style being practiced.

------------------
Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited January 30, 2002).]

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I have, on more than one occasion, gone to a Dojo/Dojang/whatever/ just to watch like an innocent bystander. Ok, I've done it a few times. Some were curiosity only,

I fully endorse the practice of doing such. You are to be commended for going out and seeing wha else is out there. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

but others were after a bad training night, as a way of re-affirming Uechi Ryu as my choice of martial art, despite its stated (on these forums) shortcomings.

I feel that Uechi has less shortcomings then many MA systems.[/quote]It's very interesting to talk to students who assume you know nothing, just to get their honest perspective on what it is they believe they are learning.[/quote] As a veteran white-belt of a number of dojang/dojo I found locker room karate talk most interesting more than not. Sometimes I would chuckle in quietude but never would say much if anything. More often than not, visions of what is are distorted as well as no matter what sty one practices it is natural to cut down other styles, and no matter what dojo you are from it is natural o cut down the next dojo of the same style. Human nature. Probably more importantly, that attitude is a necessary winning warrior’s arrogance. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Also interesting to watch practitioners who hold your rank in another style. I have yet to come away from such a visit without the firm conviction that Uechi Ryu is a complete and realistic compilation of both art and technique for the serious martial artist:

For many years I held the belief that an Ikkyu Uechika was on a comparable level as a 1st or even 2nd dan Taekwondoist. With my first immersion into TKD, I believed it and still do. However, through the years I have seen the teachings of Uechi-ryu deteriorate so badly that I no longer believe those thoughts are true. Only in the last several years have I noticed a renaissance in Uechi-ryu instruction in the Boston area and think maybe Uechi 1st dan is now equivalent to TKD 1st dan. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

"If only I could practise it just a little better!"

Ah! The thoughts and desires of one who can excel in his style and set it to be an example – most any style. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

This spurs me on to go back to my Dojo and put more responsibility on me, and less on the "style" or my Sensei, for what I can produce.

Follow through with this and you will be successful and a cut above the average. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If those of you who are new to martial arts in general, and Uechi Ryu specifically, have never done this: I suggest you give it a try.
You will likely conclude, as I have done, that you are indeed on the best path--you just have to try harder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have the same feelings about Uechi that many of other styles have about their own styles. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Ok, just venting. I feel better.

Excellent post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

candan · Post by **candan** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:13 am

A statement often heard in NS has a context along the lines of "Jim Maloney is an example of how good Uechi is...." Is it the "path" or the person on it? PS Uechi still live and well in Nova Scotia

Alan K · Post by **Alan K** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:14 pm

Candan jostled my memory with his reference to Jim Maloney.

If you wanted to see real Uechi performed in variations but always in a masterful manner you should have been in Summer Camp 2001 on Cape Cod.

George Mattson, sensei spoke prolifically on the various interpretations on performing Uechi Kata.

You have probably all heard of the duel of the Italian Tenors and the Irish Tenors all peforming with individual emphasis and differences in their art form.

If you were there you would have seen some of the most powerful and artful peformances of Uechi Ryu.

Sensei Maloney performed with dramatic speed and crunching power without deterioration of art form.

Sensei Canna performed in his interpretation of explosive and dramatic driving power and form.

Sensei Mattson demonstrated the softer approach with his usual cat like movements demonstrating that skill and inner softness can be just as devastating and can conserve energy without sacrifice of power and balance ready to take you out if you misconceive any yielding.

Master Tomoyose also gave demonstations that were amazing considering his age and size.

I don't remember all the others and mean no disrespect for not mentioning them; and then again I probably did not see all of them. There were so many seminars from which one could chose.

You can go to other style dojo and compare, but if you want to really see Uechi-Ryu, go to Summer Camp 2002.

Alan K

Post by **gmattson** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:46 pm

Thanks for the "plug" Al. Your check is in the mail.

------------------
GEM

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 6:40 am

good discussion , want to add one thing , I lurk watch and discuss all sorts of styles , i think its actually essential to understanding your own style , theres been things ive learnt from other styles that ive completely missed in my own , at least until i saw them approached from a different angle .

Shaolin · Post by **Shaolin** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 9:33 am

Hi all!

As someone who has studied Wing Chun for years I can tell you exactly what makes Wing Chun work. How the art as a system is designed to first bridge, enter and attack in a zone where few know how to fight. I can explain how Wing Chun uses the Centerline to do this, and how, for example, Chi-Sao trains automatic reactions to the opponent's energy to control the Centerline and the opponent's center of gravity, trap his arms if need be and control him while snapping his head back fast enough to turn out his lights. It's easy to explain this because it's all part of the system Wing Chun Kung-Fu and how it is trained and this info is well documented on the web.

Years ago I also studied Uechi Ryu to some extent and although it was clear to me that the founders of that system had some interesting ideas visible to some extent in the forms it was also clear to me that my teachers had not the slightest idea what they might be.

Now I know that any of the Okinowan systems are very closely related to systems like Wing Chun, the basic horse stance is very similar, many Okinowan styles also use the vertical fist as we do; but do they teach why this is so? I would be interested in learning if any Uechi-Ryu people could explain or define what some or any of the basic concepts, theories, principles or techniques etc that make Uechi-Ryu unique as a fighting system?

Jim

[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 01, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 2:58 pm

Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...studied Wing Chun for years...I can tell you exactly what makes Wing Chun work...

...studied Uechi Ryu to some extent...some interesting ideas visible to some extent<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And so it is from any corner of the universe.

I've also had the opportunity to "dabble" in Wing Chun. I like it - it's obvious that the system uses some important elements of infighting common to many of the southern China systems (White Eyebrow, Southern Mantis, 5 ancestors, pangainoon...).

As to your quesiton about the use of a vertical fist punch in Wing Chun vs. some Okinawan systems (most notably Isshin Ryu), I think you might be mistaken just a bit. Wing Chun is somewhat unique in the use of a radial deviation of the fist upon impact. The striking surface ultimately becomes the smaller knuckles of the hand. Isshin Ryu on the other hand does not use this lateral wrist snap on impact. Classical Okinawa karate on the other hand adds a pronation of the forearm upon impact to add a similar, last minute "snap" to the technique.

As was related to others in this thread, there are good practitioners and..."average" practitioners in every style. And go from one instructor to the next in any style (Wing Chun included) and you'll see some differences of opinion on what's important and how things should be applied.

Uechi ryu - while it shares much with Wing Chun on the "infighting" dimension - is actually intentionally vague on specifics. Different people will interpret the very basic principles in different ways, depending upon the abilities and biases that they bring to the table.

Ask away about any specific element, Jim; we're happy to share what we know. And come by more often to share your Wing Chun experience. There are more than a few on this web page (particularly our JKD practitioners) that would love to hear some good discussions about chi sao, gates, center line, fighting with the strong side forward, etc.

- Bill

T Rose · Post by **T Rose** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 4:15 pm

"Uechi ryu - while it shares much with Wing Chun on the "infighting" dimension - is actually intentionally vague on specifics. Different people will interpret the very basic principles in different ways, depending upon the abilities and biases that they bring to the table."

yup. I believe that Uechi (as well as others) is a training methology vs a style of fighting. Take any handful of (competent) Uechi fighters and you will see that they accomplish the same in different ways. Uechi contains a set of concepts and assumptions (like any other training methology) that allow a student to learn. Trick is to use the concepts and know the assumptions. Not to be limited by the training methology.

Shaolin · Post by **Shaolin** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 11:32 pm

Thanks for the replies!

Okay, well I would still like to hear about any training methodologies. You already know that in Wing Chun, actually my family was/is Ving Tsun directly under Moy Yat, that we use Chi-Sao. We attempt to occupy the Centerline and thereby the center of gravity etc etc...

I am not exactly sure what you meant by, "pronation of the forearm upon impact" could you elaborate just a bit? But I guess although vertical fists are used by some Okinowan systems the impact point is not the bottom of the fist for them.

But please explain, if possible, anything about the principles in Uechi. For example Wing Chun theory states that at close range brain/reaction delay is too slow for the fighter to see the opponent's hands at a few inches away, and react correctly. That's why Chi-Sao is used to develop sensitivity so the fighter can feel what is happening in advance. Wing Chun also trains to occupy the Centerline etc, which is thought critical. What principles, concepts etc. does Uechi train, however flexible?

I would be happy to answer any questions about Wing Chun (Moy Yat Ving Tsun) that I can.

Jim

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 3:43 am

I honestly had no idea my little confession would elicit such a range of inputs!
I hope all read that I wrote "MY choice of martial art...":meaning that FOR ME it was the right choice and in no way am I dissing anyone else's martial path.
I have friends who I respect highly and who are very accomplished in other styles, but I still prefer my path (...FOR ME...!)and I'm glad that I stumbled upon Uechi Ryu.
A very important point was made about not pinning someone else's medals upon your own Gi just because they are an outstanding example of the style you practise.
Their greatness is an example and a benchmark, not necessarily a proof of the style's "superiority".
It seems that after a while when the novelty of an endeavour wears off and you start to have discouraging plateaus in progress,a sort of self-evaluation occurs, and at such a crossroads a student either plugs along until encouragement appears, or looks for a "booster-shot" of training enthusiasm, or drops out.
All except one of the group I started with over three years ago have dropped out. That one by the way is a lady.
"Why drop out" is another thread, but I wonder if my little indulgence of lurking for affirmation might have saved a few.
Onward up the mountain...

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 1:49 pm

Jim

I think the best thing to do would be to start a fresh thread to discuss this. I will do so a bit later today.

Thanks.

- Bill

david · Post by **david** » Mon Feb 04, 2002 2:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I hope all read that I wrote "MY choice of martial art...":meaning that FOR ME it was the right choice and in no way am I dissing anyone else's martial path.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good clarification. Our choices are predicated on own attributes and inclinations. As time goes on though, you may find yourself slipping or evolving into a personal style that may not be how others "peg" what you have studied.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It seems that after a while when the novelty of an endeavour wears off and you start to have discouraging plateaus in progress,a sort of self-evaluation occurs, and at such a crossroads a student either plugs along until encouragement appears, or looks for a "booster-shot" of training enthusiasm, or drops out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. This where folks diverge -- those who have preservance and those who quit. It's a natural weeding out process. I find the plateaus are not dead ends, that sometimes they act as a period of gestation, out of which you climb even higher with skills and/or understanding. Working out sometimes with other dojo's and practitioners can help break out of a doldrum and give insight and new perspective into one's own practice.

Good training.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited February 04, 2002).]