I still keep looking for one ....anyway check out this site....not brilliant but not bad either
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/applications.htm
check out the mpegs of applications
Tai Chi Fighting
Moderator: Available
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jorvik
Tai Chi Fighting
I looked high and low for a good Tai Chi instructor..usually they just show the form. Which is no good, because how do you know you are doing it correctly unless you know the function of it?
I still keep looking for one ....anyway check out this site....not brilliant but not bad either
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/applications.htm
check out the mpegs of applications
I still keep looking for one ....anyway check out this site....not brilliant but not bad either
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/applications.htm
check out the mpegs of applications
Re: Tai Chi Fighting
Hi Jorvik,jorvik wrote:I looked high and low for a good Tai Chi instructor..usually they just show the form. Which is no good, because how do you know you are doing it correctly unless you know the function of it?
I still keep looking for one ....anyway check out this site....not brilliant but not bad either
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/applications.htm
check out the mpegs of applications
Do you live near a major city?
Check BlackBelt/Inside Kung-Fu listings?
There should be some good schools in England. Be it Tai Chi or WCK I would try to find the oldest rooted family that has ass kickin Chi Sao/Push Hands. The more combat oriented the better. You never know who you may find hiding in some little school too. My school isn't listed in the book.
Maybe I'm spoiled but living near NYC there is so many good schools here - you can even train in the local Shaolin Temple if you like.
Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
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jorvik
Hi Jim.
I've looked for years, close by me there is an old Chinese teaching Tai-Chi,
I know more about it than he does. Problem is most people see it as a dance. I know of two Tai Chi teachers that I'm going to see soon......and there is still that WC guy...who charges too much, I'll check him out when I get a free wednesday
I'll have a look at blackbelt listings ......check those vids out though....they're quite good.
I've looked for years, close by me there is an old Chinese teaching Tai-Chi,
I know more about it than he does. Problem is most people see it as a dance. I know of two Tai Chi teachers that I'm going to see soon......and there is still that WC guy...who charges too much, I'll check him out when I get a free wednesday
I'll have a look at blackbelt listings ......check those vids out though....they're quite good.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
jorvik
I know how you feel. I did short form Yang style taiji with various Robert Smith students for a while, and used to walk through the form quite nicely. But I quit it and left it for aikido instead, because there was very little in the way of partner work. Lots of talk and little show.
I recommend looking for two things. Find someone who likes to do push hands. That's the essence of learning the energy flow in tai chi. Then look for people who like to show kyusho applications to taiji moves. You might find those people faster via the kyusho circuit than you will by starting with the general tai chi crowd.
- Bill
I know how you feel. I did short form Yang style taiji with various Robert Smith students for a while, and used to walk through the form quite nicely. But I quit it and left it for aikido instead, because there was very little in the way of partner work. Lots of talk and little show.
I recommend looking for two things. Find someone who likes to do push hands. That's the essence of learning the energy flow in tai chi. Then look for people who like to show kyusho applications to taiji moves. You might find those people faster via the kyusho circuit than you will by starting with the general tai chi crowd.
- Bill
My first Sifu taught Tai-Chi as a fighting art, and I know it only as that. He taught breathing, power generation, and technique application in Chen's Tai-chi similar to Van's Torture Chamber methods. If you want a good Tai-chi instructor suited for you, jorvic, than you must conduct what may seem an endless search and look under every stone.
Always with an even keel.
-- Allen
-- Allen
oh crap oh crap- can't remember his name- will have to get it for you- he used to be quite the UEchi fellow if I'm not mistaken- in Rhode Island teaching Tia Chi I'm a dork for not remembering- but I'll get his name if you aren't too far from there- but he was around with Mr. Ed Parker- I want to say his name is John Carrol- but I don't think that's right- I'll get it for you if you could get to Providense- (right down town)
K
K
Checked out the non Real media. The RMs don't seem to work.jorvik wrote:check those vids out though....they're quite good.
Play Guitar - happens in chi-sao but looks incomplete to me - like no finish.
Press - is very familiar too, WCK shares a variation on it and I would think Aikido too no?
How much Aikido do you see in that Tai Chi? Some of the movements look like half the Aikido move without the finishing throw. What's your take?
Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
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jorvik
I'm going to see a Chinese Sifu who teaches Yang and Chen styles, and pushing hands...so I'll stick with him if he's any good...otherwise I think it'll be the expensive WC guy.
JIM
I know what you mean about Tai Chi looking like incomplete Aikido......I think it has a greater similarity to sport Aikido than Traditional, as that tends to have quick throws, which are more or less pulls and pushes.
Tai Chi looks to me like you're just pushing someone when they're off balance and using your whole body weight.....sounds unskillfull but when you think about it , it's quite profound...you can see how somebody older and weaker could throw a much younger fitter/stronger person.
By a strange coincidence I just met an old Tai chi friend at a night school class......I used to do a style called Hao.....the people were very nice, no fighting skills to speak of , but I learned various methods of pushing hands of them, and I can relate them to the videos, I can see how pushing hands fits in with the applications
JIM
I know what you mean about Tai Chi looking like incomplete Aikido......I think it has a greater similarity to sport Aikido than Traditional, as that tends to have quick throws, which are more or less pulls and pushes.
Tai Chi looks to me like you're just pushing someone when they're off balance and using your whole body weight.....sounds unskillfull but when you think about it , it's quite profound...you can see how somebody older and weaker could throw a much younger fitter/stronger person.
By a strange coincidence I just met an old Tai chi friend at a night school class......I used to do a style called Hao.....the people were very nice, no fighting skills to speak of , but I learned various methods of pushing hands of them, and I can relate them to the videos, I can see how pushing hands fits in with the applications
I think some of the Tai Chi moves could be deadly with the right energy or maybe chi.jorvik wrote:I'm going to see a Chinese Sifu who teaches Yang and Chen styles, and pushing hands...so I'll stick with him if he's any good...otherwise I think it'll be the expensive WC guy.
JIM
I know what you mean about Tai Chi looking like incomplete Aikido......I think it has a greater similarity to sport Aikido than Traditional, as that tends to have quick throws, which are more or less pulls and pushes.
Tai Chi looks to me like you're just pushing someone when they're off balance and using your whole body weight.....sounds unskillfull but when you think about it , it's quite profound...you can see how somebody older and weaker could throw a much younger fitter/stronger person.
By a strange coincidence I just met an old Tai chi friend at a night school class......I used to do a style called Hao.....the people were very nice, no fighting skills to speak of , but I learned various methods of pushing hands of them, and I can relate them to the videos, I can see how pushing hands fits in with the applications
I suspect that the one move where he just pulls the guy is missing a finish. We often do similar things to show the partner he's off but at least with us it's not a proper finish. Sorry if you can't get the WCK it would be fun hearing about the experience from someone here.Interesting that TC is a 'striking art' yet there is no striking in Push Hands. I wonder how it would work if you incorporated striking into the push hands exercise, perhaps it was done at one time. (Maybe Bill would have an opinion on that.) _ There should be no structural difference only the energy would change. Not all moves could be strikes but the palms could certainly be. In chi-sao there is both a 'push' and a strike with the palm. It's always interesting how the change in energy changes other things.
I would like to see Tai Chi come back into it's own as a real fighting style. For crying out loud, with a name like "Ultimate Fist" it should at least be on the fighting map.
Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
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jorvik
TED...I am going to look at a tai chi club that is part of his organisation tomorrow.
JIM
I did Hao style Tai chi for a couple of years mainly because I thought I could work out the moves myself and also because they did a lot of pushing hands...the style is unusual because it is a mix of Tai Chi, Hsing I and Pagua...there are punches in the system but they were never really explained ( as is too often the case with Tai Chi).there was never any attempt to drill them as in Karate, and no applications , and yet it is probably the best Tai Chi club that I have found so far...the Instructor was in the know about Tai Chi and he didn't really know any fighting teachers either.
They say in Tai Chi that pushing hands is the way to test your fighting ability...my take on that would be that Tai Chi fighting should resemble in some way pushing hands...that is why those videos interested me.....there ar other types of pushing hands one is were you punch and you are blocked so you circle your arm around to the inside and punch again..this is trained as a pushing hands exercise and looks similar to chi sao. Maybe tai chi is like karate were they punch and kick but in the kata there are throws, escapes and locks?
I've found a cheaper WC teacher as well.........he's one of Leung tings school..........( so/
I have my doubts)
JIM
I did Hao style Tai chi for a couple of years mainly because I thought I could work out the moves myself and also because they did a lot of pushing hands...the style is unusual because it is a mix of Tai Chi, Hsing I and Pagua...there are punches in the system but they were never really explained ( as is too often the case with Tai Chi).there was never any attempt to drill them as in Karate, and no applications , and yet it is probably the best Tai Chi club that I have found so far...the Instructor was in the know about Tai Chi and he didn't really know any fighting teachers either.
They say in Tai Chi that pushing hands is the way to test your fighting ability...my take on that would be that Tai Chi fighting should resemble in some way pushing hands...that is why those videos interested me.....there ar other types of pushing hands one is were you punch and you are blocked so you circle your arm around to the inside and punch again..this is trained as a pushing hands exercise and looks similar to chi sao. Maybe tai chi is like karate were they punch and kick but in the kata there are throws, escapes and locks?
I've found a cheaper WC teacher as well.........he's one of Leung tings school..........( so/
I have my doubts)Good Day,
As a subsidiary to my karate training I've been practicing the Yang Long form about 25 years, and have been working on the Wu teaching form these past few years too.
Tai Chi as a fighting art was essentially switched into Tai Chi for health around 100 years ago. That doesn't mean that there haven't been those who've pursued Tai Chi for its combat potential, but you tend to have to really look for them.
Tai Chi Chaun consists of about 5 major versions and millions of sub-styles within them. The largest is the Yang system.
It consists of different warm-up, chi kung, exercises, and forms practice. In addition there are various subsidiary practices.
Pushing Hands isn't combat oriented, but a two person balance exercise(s) trying to pull or push the partner out of their center. Two skilled invididuals would remain neutralizing each other throughout, making the exercise a sort of 'energy' exercise, changing their flow trying to off center the other. In effect the person being unbalanced actually unbalances themself.
Other links are exercises such as Da Lu, a two person exercise with more invovled stepping and trying to draw the opponent back to a corner. This contains more combat opportunities, and interstingly could be found as a two person exercise using a piece of Chinto kata, though the Okinawan Shroin practice of Chinto does not tend to use those application potentials.
Then a far more detailed exercise is San Shou in the Yang system, or a two person drill of 88 movements, where the use of Tai Chi movement against a very wide range of combat techniques is explored. This in effect becomes a gigantic Push Hands drill, for if during its execution either partner becomes off centered, the form would be expanded to take advantage of their lack of focus to down them.
Likewise Yang incorporates a number of different weapons traditions, too.
This is a very complex study, and I suspect part of the reason it isn't as frequently pursued for combat, is that few are willing to invest the time and energy to do so. We're talking long years here.
A great deal of Tai Chi's potential has been explored in the teachings, writings and video's of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. His advanced Tai Chi series talks about the energy development and application analysis tai chi posseses. As he wrote them in the early 80's there have been many who have taken his analalytical approach and applied it to their own forms application studies.
He has also explored the use of the energy flow of Tai Chi movement in its Chin Na or grappling potentials.
The key is you can't teach yourself and it does take a knowledgable instructor.
The second thing is there are so many different approaches to instruction, it is rather impossible to discuss on the internet who's got the better. Most are rather loyal to their own instructor.
I've always found tai chi is a valuable subsidary training that complements my karate studies. In the long run its movement flow taught me more about the potential within karate. And I find my own tai chi application studies are quite useful, too. With effort you can find parallels within karate.
A friend who teaches the Chinese styles professionally, finds tai chi attracts a different student than those who study the harder Chinse styles. But as we live in a world with people having less free time, there seems to be a real lack of individuals who are willing to take the time to make even minimal progress.
Some observatiosn for consideration,
As a subsidiary to my karate training I've been practicing the Yang Long form about 25 years, and have been working on the Wu teaching form these past few years too.
Tai Chi as a fighting art was essentially switched into Tai Chi for health around 100 years ago. That doesn't mean that there haven't been those who've pursued Tai Chi for its combat potential, but you tend to have to really look for them.
Tai Chi Chaun consists of about 5 major versions and millions of sub-styles within them. The largest is the Yang system.
It consists of different warm-up, chi kung, exercises, and forms practice. In addition there are various subsidiary practices.
Pushing Hands isn't combat oriented, but a two person balance exercise(s) trying to pull or push the partner out of their center. Two skilled invididuals would remain neutralizing each other throughout, making the exercise a sort of 'energy' exercise, changing their flow trying to off center the other. In effect the person being unbalanced actually unbalances themself.
Other links are exercises such as Da Lu, a two person exercise with more invovled stepping and trying to draw the opponent back to a corner. This contains more combat opportunities, and interstingly could be found as a two person exercise using a piece of Chinto kata, though the Okinawan Shroin practice of Chinto does not tend to use those application potentials.
Then a far more detailed exercise is San Shou in the Yang system, or a two person drill of 88 movements, where the use of Tai Chi movement against a very wide range of combat techniques is explored. This in effect becomes a gigantic Push Hands drill, for if during its execution either partner becomes off centered, the form would be expanded to take advantage of their lack of focus to down them.
Likewise Yang incorporates a number of different weapons traditions, too.
This is a very complex study, and I suspect part of the reason it isn't as frequently pursued for combat, is that few are willing to invest the time and energy to do so. We're talking long years here.
A great deal of Tai Chi's potential has been explored in the teachings, writings and video's of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. His advanced Tai Chi series talks about the energy development and application analysis tai chi posseses. As he wrote them in the early 80's there have been many who have taken his analalytical approach and applied it to their own forms application studies.
He has also explored the use of the energy flow of Tai Chi movement in its Chin Na or grappling potentials.
The key is you can't teach yourself and it does take a knowledgable instructor.
The second thing is there are so many different approaches to instruction, it is rather impossible to discuss on the internet who's got the better. Most are rather loyal to their own instructor.
I've always found tai chi is a valuable subsidary training that complements my karate studies. In the long run its movement flow taught me more about the potential within karate. And I find my own tai chi application studies are quite useful, too. With effort you can find parallels within karate.
A friend who teaches the Chinese styles professionally, finds tai chi attracts a different student than those who study the harder Chinse styles. But as we live in a world with people having less free time, there seems to be a real lack of individuals who are willing to take the time to make even minimal progress.
Some observatiosn for consideration,
Victor Smith
