Is it possible to be Spirtual and not be Religious?
I know many kind people, people who have good hearts, minds and who extend a helping hand to those that need it. These people have no religious background. Maybe they believe in God but don't worship Him or maybe they have no opinion on God. They do believe in good and follow that path. Are these people Spirtual human beings?
I'm not overly religious. I was brought up in a very strict faith which pushed me away from the legalesse of the chuch and establishment. But based on that upbringing, it gave me a 'sense' of Spirituality. I believe in good things. In positive things. In a good outlook in life.
Martial Arts is similar. There are spiritualists who practice specific arts and their are people who treat their art as a Religion. Some even leaving a church to pursue their Art as their sole belief.
What are you thoughts on the two aspects of either the belief or the being.?
Spirituality vs Religion
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Spirituality vs Religion
“Don’t let Martial Arts grab hold of you. Grab a hold of it.” -James Ibrao
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Man, that is one dangerous request. As they say, never discuss politics and religion. Check out the How Was It That We Survived thread to see what I mean. At some point, you just have to back away.
I think it's easy to factually state that one can be extremely spiritual without religion. But even on the religion issue, there are many denominations, never mind the fact that you have organized vs. personal religion.
It's easy to treat martial arts as a religion, but in general I think that is a mistake. We should not be searching for gurus in the martial arts. To do so is inviting manipulation by people who don't deserve to be put on any pedistal.
Spirituality is an extremely important aspect of total person development though, and martial arts is a good way both to express and to develop it. It is expressed not through the achievement of any goal or the acquisition of any knowledge, but rather by the struggle one goes through to learn, grow, and apply knowledge. We develop and temper the spirit when we attempt to achieve difficult goals. We challenge the spirit whenever facing a difficult opponent or pushing ourselves to our limit. From this we do pick up valuable lessons that can be applied outside martial arts.
I will tell you that on the character development end of things that both the martial arts and religion are tools designed to achieve an end. The religion and the art can't in themselves make the person; the person must be engaged in the activity to develop within.
- Bill
I think it's easy to factually state that one can be extremely spiritual without religion. But even on the religion issue, there are many denominations, never mind the fact that you have organized vs. personal religion.
It's easy to treat martial arts as a religion, but in general I think that is a mistake. We should not be searching for gurus in the martial arts. To do so is inviting manipulation by people who don't deserve to be put on any pedistal.
Spirituality is an extremely important aspect of total person development though, and martial arts is a good way both to express and to develop it. It is expressed not through the achievement of any goal or the acquisition of any knowledge, but rather by the struggle one goes through to learn, grow, and apply knowledge. We develop and temper the spirit when we attempt to achieve difficult goals. We challenge the spirit whenever facing a difficult opponent or pushing ourselves to our limit. From this we do pick up valuable lessons that can be applied outside martial arts.
I will tell you that on the character development end of things that both the martial arts and religion are tools designed to achieve an end. The religion and the art can't in themselves make the person; the person must be engaged in the activity to develop within.
- Bill
Maybe this is a dangerous topic, but one thing I have noticed.....
Some people are simply more in touch with their heart. Perhaps we all are to some degree, but those who engage in imoral activities seem to be out of touch with the heart.
To me, that is more important than a belief system, regardless of what it is. Although, as Bill said above, religion and spirituality both can provide roads to greater character development.
Some people are simply more in touch with their heart. Perhaps we all are to some degree, but those who engage in imoral activities seem to be out of touch with the heart.
To me, that is more important than a belief system, regardless of what it is. Although, as Bill said above, religion and spirituality both can provide roads to greater character development.
ya know- it can be quite frustrating, when you have questions and you aren't sure where to look for answers, and after you pick a spot to try some out, you get "back away" or "let it go"- (smiling) I've gotten the same thing. Problem is, is that it is a valid suggestion.
Most times, espescially with regards to religion and politics- people become "emotionally" involved in whatever it is that they believe. Doesn't matter what the subject is, it can be what color the sky is- if someone has developed a belief, from emotions they have experienced, the subject then becomes an "emotionaly charged" one, as opposed to a plain ole' "subject"- something to talk about.
When people's emotions are involved- that's where the "back away" let it go" things come into play- Someone might take someone else's personal "belief" and react to it "emotionaly" because it disagrees with their belief- provoaking the emotion. Some of those emotions could be anger, feelings of insult, ego attack, personal attack- etc. Once those "feelings" become involved- within a "subject" it's hard to "get out of it gracefully". People wind up "feeling" offended because of something you've said. So that's why people say "let it go".
Some people can "talk" about a subject and not become "emotionally" invested/involved in the other person's belief system. They can state their own and listen to yours without "feeling" threatened, or trying to manipulate.
Emotions are powerful, heady things. Emotions are usually felt in an "extrteme" within these subjects- religion and politics- so it's tough to get a conversation about either going without a fight errupting.
I will say- that- I am a very spiritual person. I express my spirituality in several different ways. An "organized" religion doesn't happen to be one of them. "Been there done that" for me. Martial Arts is- writting is- sometimes my heart is pure, sometimes it isn't. It's also possible for "good people" NOT to be spiritual. These people have a positive outlook on life- they are kind and generous- but do so because of personal choice, and general disposition. A generally angery person can be very good hearted at times too. It comes down to the "intent" of the person, and their personal choices of expression.
Most times, people associate "intent" whether good or bad, with whatever "religion" a person is. This is our culture. But "intent", MA, religion, and spirituality are all different things. All of these different things are colored by a person's "emotions"- how they feel and react to things. Emotions are like the sparkling flashes in a waterfall- you sometimes can't distinguish between which is water, and which is a reflection of light- it's all mixed together. The "kind" of emotion associated within a subject- will be colored by a person's experiences. But if you take a subject, and a large group of people, with all kinds of varying emotional reactions to that one subject- watch out. That is what Mr. Glasheen Sensei is saying. And, he's right. It happens. He absolutely right in the "manipulation" comment. (He's usually right anyway LOL)
Anyway- not trying to get on a soap box here- and know that I'm also not any kind of authority on this. These are just things I've learned. I could be wrong- but that's how I "view" the subject- and respectfully- put it out there for everyone to "bash" (laughing).
Complicated huh- But I wanted to give you at least something because I understand the "want" for knowledge and understanding.
smiling-
(hoping no one will hurt me lol)
K
Most times, espescially with regards to religion and politics- people become "emotionally" involved in whatever it is that they believe. Doesn't matter what the subject is, it can be what color the sky is- if someone has developed a belief, from emotions they have experienced, the subject then becomes an "emotionaly charged" one, as opposed to a plain ole' "subject"- something to talk about.
When people's emotions are involved- that's where the "back away" let it go" things come into play- Someone might take someone else's personal "belief" and react to it "emotionaly" because it disagrees with their belief- provoaking the emotion. Some of those emotions could be anger, feelings of insult, ego attack, personal attack- etc. Once those "feelings" become involved- within a "subject" it's hard to "get out of it gracefully". People wind up "feeling" offended because of something you've said. So that's why people say "let it go".
Some people can "talk" about a subject and not become "emotionally" invested/involved in the other person's belief system. They can state their own and listen to yours without "feeling" threatened, or trying to manipulate.
Emotions are powerful, heady things. Emotions are usually felt in an "extrteme" within these subjects- religion and politics- so it's tough to get a conversation about either going without a fight errupting.
I will say- that- I am a very spiritual person. I express my spirituality in several different ways. An "organized" religion doesn't happen to be one of them. "Been there done that" for me. Martial Arts is- writting is- sometimes my heart is pure, sometimes it isn't. It's also possible for "good people" NOT to be spiritual. These people have a positive outlook on life- they are kind and generous- but do so because of personal choice, and general disposition. A generally angery person can be very good hearted at times too. It comes down to the "intent" of the person, and their personal choices of expression.
Most times, people associate "intent" whether good or bad, with whatever "religion" a person is. This is our culture. But "intent", MA, religion, and spirituality are all different things. All of these different things are colored by a person's "emotions"- how they feel and react to things. Emotions are like the sparkling flashes in a waterfall- you sometimes can't distinguish between which is water, and which is a reflection of light- it's all mixed together. The "kind" of emotion associated within a subject- will be colored by a person's experiences. But if you take a subject, and a large group of people, with all kinds of varying emotional reactions to that one subject- watch out. That is what Mr. Glasheen Sensei is saying. And, he's right. It happens. He absolutely right in the "manipulation" comment. (He's usually right anyway LOL)
Anyway- not trying to get on a soap box here- and know that I'm also not any kind of authority on this. These are just things I've learned. I could be wrong- but that's how I "view" the subject- and respectfully- put it out there for everyone to "bash" (laughing).
Complicated huh- But I wanted to give you at least something because I understand the "want" for knowledge and understanding.
smiling-
(hoping no one will hurt me lol)
K
Spirituality vs. Religion
This is a touchy subject but here goes anyway. By christians standards, the idea of spirituality is a connection with the Holy Spirit. When a christian comes into a relationship with Christ several things happen.
#1. He asks forgiveness of sin
#2. He accepts and believes the biblical story of Christ, especially that he died on a cross for his sins.
#3. He accepts Christ in his heart to guide his life.
Note the following scripture:
These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. John 14:25-26
Christ's spirit is seen as a separate entity on the earth to act as a liason between Christ and a christian......kind of like a big guidance counselor.
Religion is a man-made thing. Man's attempt to pigeon hole God's laws and man's rules. It is an affiliation with a particular religious sect.
So basically, according to christian standards, being spiritual is being connected and allowing yourself to be led by God's spirit on this earth with a basis in God's word the Bible.
Being religious is living strictly by the rules of the religious sect's rules you identify with, usually having it's basis in christian principles but pretty much dictated by man and his interpretation of do's and don't along with the rituals involved.
Keep in mind, this is all from a christian view.
Regards,
Vicki
#1. He asks forgiveness of sin
#2. He accepts and believes the biblical story of Christ, especially that he died on a cross for his sins.
#3. He accepts Christ in his heart to guide his life.
Note the following scripture:
These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. John 14:25-26
Christ's spirit is seen as a separate entity on the earth to act as a liason between Christ and a christian......kind of like a big guidance counselor.
Religion is a man-made thing. Man's attempt to pigeon hole God's laws and man's rules. It is an affiliation with a particular religious sect.
So basically, according to christian standards, being spiritual is being connected and allowing yourself to be led by God's spirit on this earth with a basis in God's word the Bible.
Being religious is living strictly by the rules of the religious sect's rules you identify with, usually having it's basis in christian principles but pretty much dictated by man and his interpretation of do's and don't along with the rituals involved.
Keep in mind, this is all from a christian view.
Regards,
Vicki
Kerry-sama,
EXCELLENT post!
One of my favorite teachers, a comedian who works as Swami Beyondananda, once said, "If someone is not secure enough in their beliefs to joke about them, then they are NOT secure IN those beliefs."
While I am somewhat defensive about my own religion, my defensiveness stems more from my dislike of stereotyping than from defending my religion as "better" or "right" over others.
Personally, I never could understand how a "my way or hell" view of deity could possibly work, especially when the representations of that depiction of deity had, until recently, not been available (in ANY way) to the population of the world-at-large.
Color me silly, but it would seem that an exclusivist deity would be in direct contradiction of that which (supposedly) CREATED all things.
SO, while I may agree or disagree with someone's faith, I would probably be the last guy on the planet to dis them for having that belief - with the exceptions of those groups that incorporate abuse and deliberate violence against the uninvolved and innocents, obviously).
We must remember - tolerance is just that - we TOLERATE something. We don't have to agree with it, we certainly don't have to BELIEVE it, but, IMHO, we should tolerate it until such time as someone is hurting someone else (or us).
The Founding Fathers prohibited the creation of a State supported religion. NOwhere did they state that there shouldn't be mention OF religion - either by public officials (Jefferson even wrote a National Prayer at one time) or in government practice itself.
For all the humph and phoobah about the inclusion of the word "G-d" in the Pledge of Allegiance, I have yet to hear anyone raise an eyebrow over the FACT that both the Senate and the House have a Chaplain on staff.
Like I said, I may not agree, but I CAN tolerate.
Maybe more people need to look at that path. Things would be a lot quieter, IMHO.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
EXCELLENT post!
One of my favorite teachers, a comedian who works as Swami Beyondananda, once said, "If someone is not secure enough in their beliefs to joke about them, then they are NOT secure IN those beliefs."
While I am somewhat defensive about my own religion, my defensiveness stems more from my dislike of stereotyping than from defending my religion as "better" or "right" over others.
Personally, I never could understand how a "my way or hell" view of deity could possibly work, especially when the representations of that depiction of deity had, until recently, not been available (in ANY way) to the population of the world-at-large.
Color me silly, but it would seem that an exclusivist deity would be in direct contradiction of that which (supposedly) CREATED all things.
SO, while I may agree or disagree with someone's faith, I would probably be the last guy on the planet to dis them for having that belief - with the exceptions of those groups that incorporate abuse and deliberate violence against the uninvolved and innocents, obviously).
We must remember - tolerance is just that - we TOLERATE something. We don't have to agree with it, we certainly don't have to BELIEVE it, but, IMHO, we should tolerate it until such time as someone is hurting someone else (or us).
The Founding Fathers prohibited the creation of a State supported religion. NOwhere did they state that there shouldn't be mention OF religion - either by public officials (Jefferson even wrote a National Prayer at one time) or in government practice itself.
For all the humph and phoobah about the inclusion of the word "G-d" in the Pledge of Allegiance, I have yet to hear anyone raise an eyebrow over the FACT that both the Senate and the House have a Chaplain on staff.
Like I said, I may not agree, but I CAN tolerate.
Maybe more people need to look at that path. Things would be a lot quieter, IMHO.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
I would agree that spirituality and religion are not identical. Religion is one way of expressing spirituality. I think faith is also a significant concept that relates to religion and spirituality.
It's so difficult to really define any of these things in concrete terms, but
by faith, I mean specific ideas about the nature of the universe that are believed without (or with a minimum of) factual evidence. Also, the leap of faith itself seems to be as important as what is actually believed.
Of course, there is a point at which you can reduce any knowledge or belief to faith, since there has to be at least one base fact from which you draw your conclusion, even if it's "my senses are a reliable source of information."
Religion seems to require faith. I've never heard of one without faith, since religion (as I understand the word) neccesarily involves some sort of rites and practices which are usually dependant on faith-based explanation for why they're performed.
Spirituality doesn't seem to require faith. I think certain approaches to yoga and martial arts fall into this category. There's a definite idea of spiritualty involved, but there isn't neccesarily any set precepts to be believed. Chakras and chi often (maybe usually) are involved, but not always.
An example of spirituality with faith would be something like belief in crystals and magnets as vehicles of healing and spiritual well-being. There may not be any set rites or organized systems that would qualify it as a religion, but the person is still showing faith in the efficacy of the objects and whatever principles they're presumed to work by. I think in many cases these items fill the same sort of psychological niche that a cross does for a Christian. That is, as a reminder of the set of beliefs they've taken on.
Incidentally, I don't think there's anything wrong with people seeking spiritual enlightenment in a martial arts class, it's just a fundamentally different goal then self-defense. And while there's probably more charlatans in the martial arts world offering faux-enlightenment, there certainly are shady religious figures around.
Personally, spirituality isn't something that's part of my life, but I think it's an interesting.
It's so difficult to really define any of these things in concrete terms, but
by faith, I mean specific ideas about the nature of the universe that are believed without (or with a minimum of) factual evidence. Also, the leap of faith itself seems to be as important as what is actually believed.
Of course, there is a point at which you can reduce any knowledge or belief to faith, since there has to be at least one base fact from which you draw your conclusion, even if it's "my senses are a reliable source of information."
Religion seems to require faith. I've never heard of one without faith, since religion (as I understand the word) neccesarily involves some sort of rites and practices which are usually dependant on faith-based explanation for why they're performed.
Spirituality doesn't seem to require faith. I think certain approaches to yoga and martial arts fall into this category. There's a definite idea of spiritualty involved, but there isn't neccesarily any set precepts to be believed. Chakras and chi often (maybe usually) are involved, but not always.
An example of spirituality with faith would be something like belief in crystals and magnets as vehicles of healing and spiritual well-being. There may not be any set rites or organized systems that would qualify it as a religion, but the person is still showing faith in the efficacy of the objects and whatever principles they're presumed to work by. I think in many cases these items fill the same sort of psychological niche that a cross does for a Christian. That is, as a reminder of the set of beliefs they've taken on.
Incidentally, I don't think there's anything wrong with people seeking spiritual enlightenment in a martial arts class, it's just a fundamentally different goal then self-defense. And while there's probably more charlatans in the martial arts world offering faux-enlightenment, there certainly are shady religious figures around.
Personally, spirituality isn't something that's part of my life, but I think it's an interesting.
smiling- great responses! Chef- that is a very accurate view of Christianity. God's Grace can be a wonderous things, and his gifts a plenty. Comes down to which religious "sect" you belong to to get into the divisions of what's required. Mormon's for example believe that you need to have many children to get into "higher levels" of Heaven, so also do the JW... Unless they've ammedned that rule- Church's of Christ, the conservitives, believe if you have an organ to sing with you are a real christian... The list goes on. I don't have a problem at all- not one single bit- with people practicing any kind of "organized" religion- They, for the most part, are doing their best to do what is right in their hearts. "Intent"- God- The Goddess- God's and Goddess's know this- I just try to not judge anyone elses "intent" or heart.
Faith is a big factor also. No matter "who" you are praying or looking to- there is a measure of faith in order to believe they are there- although there is a minimal amount of scientific data to support chi, chakras, and medicinal, or whatever purposes for crystal healing/focus- so there's a little fact there. But then- everyone has the choice to believe it or not. So there's your faith again.
Martial Arts is a matter of self defense/ fighting- but since there is the third aspect "spirit" that's where the "spiritualality" of it comes in. The enlightenment is governed not by an outside force, but really rather an inward one. A good Sensei can and does provoak this look in-ward, during the process of learning how to breathe correctly, focus, contrrol of emotions, etc.etc.
It's all really cool if you think about it. Whatever excersize you use, or however many- I honestly believe it comes down to what the intent is of your heart- if you are mean spirited and wish to hurt people- that's bad- if not- cool.
If you are a devote Catholic, and wish to excersize your spirituality that way- cool- or Mormon, or any other- The problem stems when people try to force other people to believe what they do. Everyone has the right to choice. Discussions are wonderful! Espescially laced with humor and respect. Without those two things- it's best to keep your mouth shut.
This is a wonderful topic- thanks for joining in!
K
Faith is a big factor also. No matter "who" you are praying or looking to- there is a measure of faith in order to believe they are there- although there is a minimal amount of scientific data to support chi, chakras, and medicinal, or whatever purposes for crystal healing/focus- so there's a little fact there. But then- everyone has the choice to believe it or not. So there's your faith again.
Martial Arts is a matter of self defense/ fighting- but since there is the third aspect "spirit" that's where the "spiritualality" of it comes in. The enlightenment is governed not by an outside force, but really rather an inward one. A good Sensei can and does provoak this look in-ward, during the process of learning how to breathe correctly, focus, contrrol of emotions, etc.etc.
It's all really cool if you think about it. Whatever excersize you use, or however many- I honestly believe it comes down to what the intent is of your heart- if you are mean spirited and wish to hurt people- that's bad- if not- cool.
If you are a devote Catholic, and wish to excersize your spirituality that way- cool- or Mormon, or any other- The problem stems when people try to force other people to believe what they do. Everyone has the right to choice. Discussions are wonderful! Espescially laced with humor and respect. Without those two things- it's best to keep your mouth shut. This is a wonderful topic- thanks for joining in!
K
Mmmmm
Hi All,
Define Spirituality and Define Religion first.
There are no Religions I believe in totally.
I like a lot of the Tennets of Buddhism which the People who started Christianity appropriated.
Like doing good for others, not stealing, not kiling etc.
These are what the Buddha taught 500 years b4 the story of Christ supposedly started.
But there is a lot in Eastern Religions which does not make sense to me.
Karma in this life makes some sort of sense ie if I'm bad bad will come upon me.
But the idea of Karma going from one life to another or in Christian terms if your good on Earth you get your reward in heaven.
Yeah right.
I see the idea of the old man with the white beard rewarding us in heaven for our earthly merits as Father Christmas for adults.
And obviously if god is Omnisient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Benevolent. then there would be no suffering obviously but there is and lots of it.
to children to old people to everyone.
Spirituality what is this? Being good being moral you don't need an outside force for this?
And most major Religions have the same moral codes plagourising form one another as is historically shown.
The Catholic Religion is the most wealthy organization in the world.
If Jesus was a real person and he came back as has been promised to followers, for the last 2000 years.
He would have no conection to such a wealthy and corrupt organization, with it's links with the mafia and supporting of the third reich in the second world war.
But it is the most powerful Religous organization, go figure?
In the UK the Christian Religions of whatever denomination are institutionally paedophilic also.
We have stories weekly in local and national newspapers of this nature. I don't know if this is the same in the US?
I've rambled on a bit here but
I see no Religion which is factually provable or even morally worthy.
I prefer to go my own way.
I don't need to believe in after life rewards to be a good person.
RK
Define Spirituality and Define Religion first.
There are no Religions I believe in totally.
I like a lot of the Tennets of Buddhism which the People who started Christianity appropriated.
Like doing good for others, not stealing, not kiling etc.
These are what the Buddha taught 500 years b4 the story of Christ supposedly started.
But there is a lot in Eastern Religions which does not make sense to me.
Karma in this life makes some sort of sense ie if I'm bad bad will come upon me.
But the idea of Karma going from one life to another or in Christian terms if your good on Earth you get your reward in heaven.
Yeah right.
I see the idea of the old man with the white beard rewarding us in heaven for our earthly merits as Father Christmas for adults.
And obviously if god is Omnisient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Benevolent. then there would be no suffering obviously but there is and lots of it.
to children to old people to everyone.
Spirituality what is this? Being good being moral you don't need an outside force for this?
And most major Religions have the same moral codes plagourising form one another as is historically shown.
The Catholic Religion is the most wealthy organization in the world.
If Jesus was a real person and he came back as has been promised to followers, for the last 2000 years.
He would have no conection to such a wealthy and corrupt organization, with it's links with the mafia and supporting of the third reich in the second world war.
But it is the most powerful Religous organization, go figure?
In the UK the Christian Religions of whatever denomination are institutionally paedophilic also.
We have stories weekly in local and national newspapers of this nature. I don't know if this is the same in the US?
I've rambled on a bit here but
I see no Religion which is factually provable or even morally worthy.
I prefer to go my own way.
I don't need to believe in after life rewards to be a good person.
RK
Music is the space in between the notes
Re: Mmmmm
I don't think those ideas originated with the Buddha either. They're fairly universal human ideals that have always been around. The problem is that people fail to apply them, not that they've never heard ofthem.regkray wrote:I like a lot of the Tennets of Buddhism which the People who started Christianity appropriated.
Like doing good for others, not stealing, not kiling etc.
These are what the Buddha taught 500 years b4 the story of Christ supposedly started.
If there were a FAQ for all of the faiths that use the Old Testament, I bet that question would be in there. You should read up on it, since there's no lack of answers to it on various websites.And obviously if god is Omnisient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Benevolent. then there would be no suffering obviously but there is and lots of it.
I don't think anyone is equating morality and spirituality. Morality may often be affected by spiritual pursuits but it doesn't seem like anyone is trying to say they're identical.Spirituality what is this? Being good being moral you don't need an outside force for this?
Maybe I'm confused, but I've never heard of a religion that claims it is factually provable. Even fundamentalist Christian theology requires you to take the bible on faith. They present various things as evidence, but ultimately it's about faith.I see no Religion which is factually provable or even morally worthy.
Then again, I'm almost as far from an expert on fundamentalist Christian theology as a person can get, so take that with a grain of salt.
As for the being morally worthy.... well worthy of what? What do you mean by that?
Also, how are you defining religion and spirituality?
as I've said, I do not practice any organised religion-
things of spiritual in nature are an excersize in spirituality. Hence religion, hence a martial art- any style-
the problem I see with your post reg- is only the missing factor of free-will. Because we all have a free-will no God or Goddess will intervene. We have to make our own choices and live within the consequences of such actions. The more spiritual a person is- in whatever way- the more knowledge/growth they have to use when needing to make a choice about something.
K
things of spiritual in nature are an excersize in spirituality. Hence religion, hence a martial art- any style-
the problem I see with your post reg- is only the missing factor of free-will. Because we all have a free-will no God or Goddess will intervene. We have to make our own choices and live within the consequences of such actions. The more spiritual a person is- in whatever way- the more knowledge/growth they have to use when needing to make a choice about something.
K
-
jorvik
This is a bit like Raymond Michelle's " Iron law of oligarchy" ( I think that's the right referance). Basically, something good comes along, e.g. a trade union fighting for the rights of it's members, and is hijacked by folks who realise that they can make a good living out of the trade union, 
That's my take on religion.........you'll see this a lot in life, good people's ideals being taken from them for profit by the unworthy, or their viewpoints being twisted and distorted .....in the case of Jesus, his most trusted disciple was Thomas, there is a Gospel of Thomas......yet Thomas is referred to as " the doubter"
....distortion to make him appear less significant than he was. there are many other examples and in all major religions.Though Catholiscim takes the biscuit
That's my take on religion.........you'll see this a lot in life, good people's ideals being taken from them for profit by the unworthy, or their viewpoints being twisted and distorted .....in the case of Jesus, his most trusted disciple was Thomas, there is a Gospel of Thomas......yet Thomas is referred to as " the doubter"
....distortion to make him appear less significant than he was. there are many other examples and in all major religions.Though Catholiscim takes the biscuitI thought it was John that was his most trusted.
Anyway-
I honestly believe two things- one- exactly what you just said- most organized religions/institutions become corrupted through power and money- the second- that most "lay" people really are just doing what they believe in there heart to be the right thing to do- so al-though ignorance is no excuse- if their intent is to be kind, loving, and try to do the right thing- without judgments- then they can't be blamed for the hierarcy. I would never be-grudge another's belief system- UNTIL and UNLESS they tried to force me into it through any-means. Free-will. Let's talk about it- without judgements and manipulation.
K
Anyway-
I honestly believe two things- one- exactly what you just said- most organized religions/institutions become corrupted through power and money- the second- that most "lay" people really are just doing what they believe in there heart to be the right thing to do- so al-though ignorance is no excuse- if their intent is to be kind, loving, and try to do the right thing- without judgments- then they can't be blamed for the hierarcy. I would never be-grudge another's belief system- UNTIL and UNLESS they tried to force me into it through any-means. Free-will. Let's talk about it- without judgements and manipulation.
K
