To grade or not to grade

Colin 8 of 8 · Post by **Colin 8 of 8** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 2:33 pm

Thankyou. When my head stops spining I will deside what to do. I like to teach and will probably grade to shodan or so. Thanks agian

Colin 8 of 8

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sat Mar 03, 2001 8:55 pm

david,
The problem with your not testing in aikido is that those behind you, if they have any self respect, shouldn't test past a better martial artist. Beyond that your welcome in my backyard or basement anytime, I wear a white belt as often as black myself.
Rank is an issue however with teachers. There are schools around me with 20 year old "masters" 7-9 dan ratings (not Uechi). Now if your taking young johnny to train, are you going to take him to a 7th dan or a 1-3 dan with ten times the experience. Unfortunately if you don't know any better your going for the rank.
Colin,
The belt holds your gi together, but the rank if earned should mean something to you. There must be some guidelines in your system, seek them out.
f.

david · Post by **david** » Sun Mar 04, 2001 12:22 pm

Colin,

Sorry for spinning your head. You asked and you got.

If you plan on teaching formally a style, then, yes, you have better get yourself graded. And shodan may not be enough in the future, especially when folks in some styles/schools are awarded first level black belt in as a short of a period as three years. Of course, there are shodans with much more time/experience under their belts but the prospective students won't know that. So, as Fred pointed out, folks will seek the higher rank.

Fred, if and when the time comes, your basement or mine?

david

Jake Steinmann · Post by **Jake Steinmann** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 3:03 am

I guess I would be that "Blauer Folk" sticking his nose in here.

I've given this some more thought, and the more I think of it, the less important I think rank really is.

After all...what does rank denote?
Fighting skill? Hardly...I know plenty of black belts who couldn't fight their way through a tissue, and people with no training who could just as soon kill me as give me the time of day.

Teaching ability? Again: No. While many people think that being a black belt means that you are able to teach, the sad truth is that there are many black belts out there (and some of them run clubs) who are TERRIBLE teachers.

Does rank confer legitimacy? Well, that depends on what you define as legitimacy. If you're going to claim to teach a style with a traceable lineage (Uechi, Judo, Hung Gar Kung Fu, whatever), then yes, you'd best be graded in that style.

On the other hand, who first graded Bruce Lee in JKD? Or Coach Blauer in Chu Fen Do? What about boxing, or Muay Thai...styles which have no ranking structure (unless you're a professional, but even then, rank only denotes competitive status).

Does this mean you should never test, grade, have ranks, etc?

I guess it's a matter of preference. I personally never cared for rank. I sought out one rank (my instructors status in the kung fu system I studied), but I sought it out for the knowledge and authority to teach the system. While I hold rank in Uechi and Aikido, I tested for both somewhat reluctantly (I tested for my Aikido shodan very reluctantly, actually).

That said: The formal Chu Fen Do cirriculum does use a system of "Levels", but those levels are not part of the PDR program, which is simply an instructor training/development program. Most, but not all, of the people on the PDR team have formal grading in something.

For my part, I find very little use in rank. Some people find it to be a motivator, and that's fine. Those who get obsessed with it, on the other hand, are just darned irritating.

Some rambling thoughts...

------------------
Jake Steinmann
PDR Team www.tonyblauer.com
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae

[This message has been edited by Jake Steinmann (edited March 05, 2001).]

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 5:53 am

Has to be mine david. I'm fully stocked with kobudo weapons and escrima sticks. Heavy bag, grappling mat and 600 square feet of space. Just saving up for the carpet and heat and i'm done.When big brother regulates us i'm ready.
f.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 3:58 pm

Scaramouche

The legal aspects of rank have nothing (yet) to do with law or criminality. It's the liability side of the coin. Remember that the L.A. criminal jury exonerated O.J., but a civil court took his fortune away from him. That's the concern. And it's particularly objectionable when you are someone like me who teaches in a not-for-profit status.

It's an appearance thing. What happens if Mr. Jones gets hurt in my dojo and goes to Dewey, Chetham, and Howe? The plaintiff attorney may get up with his/her expert witness who will describe what the prevailing standard is in the martial arts world. That might include an instructor of TakeYourDoe who will talk about levels and requirements and tests and oversight. Well in the courtroom it might look a little better for me if I can show a jury that I have a process - preferably codified in some fashion - whereby a person can't go from step A to step B without having first studied and then evaluated for specific requirements. If I can show I took every reasonable precaution that a person could take, then I might have a better chance of escaping financial rape. Strange language but...it's just another arena of war and violence in our society. The consequences can be just as devastating.

And what of the person who goes "underground"? Yes...that might be necessary if there were legislation and criminal issues. But it doesn't protect you from civil litigation. I know...it happened to a good friend of mine who was teaching in his basement. A student slipped and fell while training in his house. A week later, he was served with some papers.

And as it turns out, the process does help. If it is carefully thought out and followed, people will be protected from unnecessary injury. And in order to see that all follow such a process, it needs to be formalized in some fashion. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Coach Blauer's Chu Fen Do cirriculum does include "levels", but those levels are not signified by any sort of visible attire (like a belt).

Thanks for jumping in, Jake, and give my best to the coach.

Now...very interesting response.

First of all, notice the use of the title "coach"? This is a semantics issue. Whether it is sensei or sifu or shihan or grand poobah, there is a title associated with authority and talent and organization. And yes...there are levels. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Do not confuse the moon with the finger pointing at it.

You see, the belt is just the finger. What the belt represents is no different from the "levels" in contemporary American training.

Before I finished my Ph.D., I had a faculty position in the division of cardiology at U.Va. and I had a good idea. I tried submitting a proposal to American Heart Association. Nice idea but... After I got the Ph.D., I submitted the very same proposal and got the grant. Do I wear funny clothes or a colored belt at work today? No... You will see a judge wearing funny clothes in a court of law though, won't you? Why? The ceremony and process command respect for an individual who is and must be in control. Do people call me by a funny name? If I were teaching in a classroom, it might happen. When I am in a meeting with other professionals, I am called Dr. Glasheen. If I am asked to appear at an academic ceremony, I can wear a gown with a special colored thing around my neck that signifies my academic training and where I got it. There is also a pretty thingy you put on my cap that - by color - indicates my level and type of academic training. But here at work, I am otherwise just "Bill" except for a half dozen or so around here who affectionately call me "Doc." Whether or not I have the visible trappings, the process underlying it all - and the reason for having it - remains.

Food for thought.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 05, 2001).]

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 9:37 pm

I am finding this discussion fascinating. I agree with both Glasheen and Panther Senseis chosen approaches on this matter. Having said that, I have only ever tested when asked to test by my instructor. The testing process is part of the whole journey, at least the part of it where I am being guided by this teacher. He will ask me to perform certain tasks or exercises in the process of teaching me. If I decline his requests I am, in effect, refusing his instruction and wasting both his and my time. But, my teacher and I share a mutual trust and respect. So that which he asks, I give, because he will only ask for the purpose of my learning.

MY rank has alot of meaning to ME. I worked hard to earn it. Am I better than any body else because of it? no. Does a colored piece of cotton knotted below my navel give me magical powers? no.

A group made up of people I respect graded me strictly and fairly on a set of requirements they themselves have both set and met and I passed. It is an intensely personal accomplishment made much more meaningful by those who teach me by testing me. I suppose I am sorry that others are not in a dojo with this prevailing spirit.

ted

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited March 05, 2001).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:15 pm

Ted

Hard work, tough standards, equal treatment, equal access and good people make for a meaningful, intensely personal accomplishment. You are very fortunate.

- Bill

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:20 pm

Am I naive to feel that it is the "good people" for whom these arts exist?

ted

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:37 pm

I've had a saying about this... I've always compared martial arts to riding motorcycles. I find you meet the very best and very worst of humanity. I suppose you could go deep on this, like arguing there could be no good without evil or beauty without ugliness.

Certainly one function of an organization and/or process that institutes grading is to create a "character filter" or perhaps even to build character. Just as I won't last long breeding Great Danes that like to kill people, so I will attract too much attention by teaching people to engage in terrorist activities or steal money from Granny after she cashes her social security check. Martial arts most definitely has a checkered past - and even present - but the bad often seem to sabotage themselves over time. Most who study martial arts like to operate quietly and safely off the societal radar screen.

- Bill

Scaramouche · Post by **Scaramouche** » Mon Mar 05, 2001 11:21 pm

"The legal aspects of rank have nothing (yet) to do with law or criminality. It's the liability side of the coin. Remember that the L.A. criminal jury exonerated O.J., but a civil court took his fortune away from him."

Well, actually its my understanding that the families of the murder victims have yet to see any money from the killer, but I think I take your point. People with lots of money and often have accountants,and lawyers who can hide money from creditors.

"That's the concern. And it's particularly objectionable when you are someone like me who teaches in a not-for-profit status.
It's an appearance thing. What happens if Mr. Jones gets hurt in my dojo and goes to
Dewey, Chetham, and Howe?"

Why not just have students sign a release form before they can train? Belt or no belt, it seems pretty reasonable to do such a thing. I had to sign one before I could train at the Inosanto Academy. A teacher of mine from there is going to start teaching some Sunday backyard classes, and my wife (a lawyer) is going to look over a release form another martial arts instructor gave him.

Maybe its just a California thing, but I get the idea that out here prettty much every martial arts teacher requires release forms to be used before a student can train. I'd be surprised if boxing trainers and other "beltless" martial artists didn't use them too.

(Actually, come to think of it, I do do private lessons with one teacher that does not use release forms. I think that I'll discusss this with him. I would hate to see him ever get into legal trouble and not have this sort of legal defense to fall back on).

Scaramouche

Post by **gmattson** » Tue Mar 06, 2001 1:31 am

We've touched on this subject a number of times. Signing a waiver helps, but doesn't prevent a student from suing the teacher. If the teacher is negligent (at least in Mass), the waiver doesn't mean much.

Now the term "negligent" is what teachers should be concerned with. Does practicing "shimi" on a white belt fall into a defensible training practice?

Depends who you ask. The "expert" the prosecutor calls, from the local TKD school may say the teacher was negligent. If the teacher can't show some type of certification and proof that he has been properly trained to teach, he may find himself in serious trouble.

Simply having a black belt won't be sufficient proof of competency as a teacher.

Picture the field day the lawyers will have as you attempt to justify breaking a student's fingers or ribs under the guise of 'conditioning'!

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Tue Mar 06, 2001 4:41 am

Another way to look at the rank system is to understand that formal exams before an austere testing board differs totally from routine training or competition, or even a street defensive experience.

If such testing process were not set apart from the above, then there would be no sense in doing it. The fact that it continues to be an accepted standard of “progression,” then speaks for itself.

Why does it differ? Think about it… the student is called upon to measure up to an accepted standard of proficiency, to demonstrate his adaptability to a set of compulsories unique to a respected discipline in the eyes of a martial arts world. Thus the student’s calling is to place and demonstrate order and personality in a set of skills that he otherwise practices in passive mode during routine training.

During a test I enjoy watching how a student manages his waiting time, how he looks, worried? Confident? Nervous? I watch how he prepares, how he warms up, does he show resolve?

When he steps to the plate does he enter into a crisis? Does he hold together? Does he react well to commands, instructions from the board, and requests for explanations of techniques? Or does he walk about as a zombie?

Is he able to improvise variants of basic techniques in kumite or bunkais and or recover from an occasional mistake without going to pieces?

Can he really hold up under the stress of an intimate look into his martial “make up”?

I see a test as a moment of truth for the self, as one thing is to practice a normal lesson or a group kumite activity, and another is to perform to a standard before a committee of seniors looking on.

Mostly an occasion to learn about the self when in performance of dedicated standards to a given system.

In summary a test gives a chance to a group of seniors to get a handle on a student’s reaction under moments of stress to determine if he is “centered” physically and emotionally to move on to the next level of understanding.

Think of a Dan test not so much as a vehicle to attribute grade, but in particular, as a “formative” experience for the practitioner.

------------------
Van Canna

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Tue Mar 06, 2001 2:24 pm

Canna Sensei, I agree completely.

Irrespective of one's level, is something missing from training without testing?

david · Post by **david** » Tue Mar 06, 2001 3:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Think of a Dan test not so much as a vehicle to attribute grade, but in particular, as a “formative” experience for the practitioner.

Van Sensei, I think this is a good way to view the "test" experience. There are many things that can be part of the formative experience in our training, some quantifiable and some not. I do think this is bit different from the issue of grading/ranking.

Ted, We can say that by not "testing" one is missing "something." But replace "testing" with sparring, seminars, tournaments, NHB fighting, street confrontations or whatever else... Someone can always say someone else is "missing" something, depending on the individual perspective and wants.

david