Finis Origine Pendet - Beyond Sparring

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:41 pm

Finis Origine Pendet - the end depends on the beginning. It is one of the two mottos of Phillips Exeter Academy, considered by many to be one of the top prep schools in the country. They do something right there; there is a method - a process - to their madness.

It appears the forums have had a chance to exhale, so to write. For a while there - and for many reasons we don't necessarily need to go into right now - the entire forum community seemed to have been spellbound by a hotbutton topic.

It had something to do with sparring.

It had something to do with fighting and/or self defense.

It had something to do with a style of martial art and an identity. And within that identity are the many opinions about what matters and what doesn't. Sometimes the identity seems inclusive, and sometimes it seems like a container of immiscible fluids.

It had something to do with the reasons why many people put the gi on in the first place.

That's no small list!

I wanted to focus on one aspect of the thread, and see what others see in it.

Tony wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I have a test coming up in the fall and I know how I have been training. It would ****** if I had to spar in such a way that I couldn't demonstrate to the board how much i've progressed since the last time i've tested. That would happen if I was forced to test under unfamiliar conditions. ... the test board doesn't get to see the whole picture and they have no idea the direction this person is going.

That seems reasonable. But then
Gary Khoury wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

please avail yourself of the opportunity of visiting my school and facing any number of our fine FIGHTERS. You pick the (traditional—or any other) rules, we’ll oblige.

Wow...pretty strong words. But I've worked with Gary and his gang - on several occasions and in two separate venues - and I have learned a lot. So, why would Gary say something like this? Is it nature or nurture? Does Gary know what he is doing, or has he just managed to collect some of the badddest mother <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Shut your mouth!

around? Maybe so, because Gary says <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

We care far less about the process here and much more about the result.

Gosh, Gary, aren't you claiming to have an effective process, or are you just telling us you can kick bootie?

What's going on here? Is Gary getting results because of a selection process, or because he has a training process? Is there something Tony can learn from Gary? Is there a generalizable process that allows one to face many venues (point fighting, full contact karate, grappling, NHB, scenario training, the street, teaching junior high school...)???

What is the effective process? Is it kicking the **** out of each others legs? Is it getting out of your comfort zone as often as possible? Is it following tradition and folklore? Is it joining a knitting club and making sure you always travel in large numbers?

Is there an effective process, or does the following scenario apply to fighting? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Interviewer: Coach, how do you train for speed?

Coach: Well whenever I go out on a recruiting trip, I always make sure I pack my stopwatch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

- Bill

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Is there an effective process...?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If there is, would it be universal? or according to each individual?

I live for an answer to this question.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

T Rose · Post by **T Rose** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:46 pm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
please avail yourself of the opportunity of visiting my school and facing any number of our fine FIGHTERS. You pick the (traditional—or any other) rules, we’ll oblige.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your MAs should work in the rain or sun, open room or tiny bathroom, day or night, one hand holding groceries and one foot on the stair...

If you are properly trained and grounded in concept then (with minimum work) you should be able to apply (i.e spar, fight, drill) your skill in any venue (to different degrees of course). If you train for one specific venue then expect to be proficient only in that venue...

later

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:16 pm

One of the bummers of training in my area is that this is NOT a eutopia of Martial Arts talent. Aside from a few sessions with Gary Khoury, Frank Gorman and a recent visit from Roy Berdard, most of my point sparring training has been a few tips here and there. However, i've been getting alot of training in on freestyle kumite. I wasn't saying at any time that I PREFER something over another, I was saying that I would test more accuratley if I where tested in areas where I had been training the most.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:46 pm

Hi, Tony!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Aside from a few sessions with Gary Khoury, Frank Gorman and a recent visit from Roy Berdard...

Darn, Tony, I'm jealous! You can't go wrong with that trio! Those three represent some of the finest along the lines of tournament fighting, power training, and street application (roughly in that order, with some overlap of the talents).

I fully understand the situation you are in. But waiting for Uechi talent to surround you may be waiting for Gidot. In the mean time, you are it, bro'! Time to fill those big shoes!

I highly recommend you search for knowledge wherever it is - regardless of style. I can honestly say that some of my best training happened outside the style of Uechi ryu, and only because I made it happen. It was then my responsibility to integrate what I learned into my own style, along with the help of my teachers. The result I got was that I am not a clone of anyone, and have a fresh perspective on great material. Eventually the whole organization needs you to evolve to that point. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I was saying that I would test more accuratley if I where tested in areas where I had been training the most.

I understand, Tony.

Now...please allow me to challenge your thinking just a bit.

* What happens when the BG jumps out of the bushes tonight - knife in hand - and asks for your wallet?

* What happens when an irate driver follows you into a parking lot, and starts banging with rage on the window of your car?

* What happens when someone stealthily sticks a gun to your back (or so you think), and asks you to get into a car?

* What happens when/if your wife slaps you for that nasty comment you might make?

* What happens when you step out of the shower - butt ugly naked with Johnson hanging - and there is a prowler rummaging through your stuff in the nearby bedroom?

* What happens if you are walking down a sidewalk in your neighborhood, and three teenagers decide they want to mess you up?

* What happens when someone on this forum tells you he's going to come "visit" you at your residence? (No names mentioned...

)

Are you ready? Would you respond in a way that would make you have no regrets later on? Would you respond in the most appropriate fashion? In a legal fashion?

What's the common thread in all these scenarios?

And a related question... Do you believe in universal standards? If so, why, and if not, why not?

Thanks for being a good sport, Tony!

It isn't "you" I am after, it's the general subject. Hopefully you can help us all shed some light on important areas of our martial identity and training methods.

- Bill

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:43 pm

Bill,

First of all, I don't train for every scenario under the sun. Violence is Violence. If I can open the flood gate, I can make it work for me. With that thought in mind, when I am practicing Karate, it's for the sake of my karate and not the fringe benefits it can bring me. I would deal with each of the above scenarios in the same way, I would first say to myself "fuq it!" then I would say "go". and from that point on, I won't care what happens. So you see, there are only 2 obstacles for me to overcome before I turn into Primordial Man, other people have alot more.... Honestly, my ability to defend myself and my family comes from here, so how do you test this?

Anyway, Karate, allows me to tame this inner thing and allow it to interact with the world and behave in a civilized way. now this is what we should be looking for in a test, Karate... not self defense ability. The trouble is, most people associate Karate with self defense, I don't. Sure the technques are deadly and dangerous, but they are nothing compared to the montrosity that drives them. The techniques themselves allow the practioner to exert control over the outcome, in hopes that it will at least appear civilized (black eye, fat lip, bloody nose... *sheesh*). If the Inner thing had it's way, the landscape would be littered with corpses.

So in my opinion, I would like my Karate to be tested and not my self defense ability. That means, Kata, Kumite and Questions and all should meet written standards without hair splitting and personal opinions.

Everything else is between me and god.

Tony

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:55 pm

I should have also mentioned that another fringe benefit of practicing karate they way i do is that I am not "Two Tony's". Bringing the inner me to the outside and walking beside it makes me feel whole and calm inside with very little inner conflict. When i do have inner turmoil, it's not hard for me to find out why.

Does the test board look for things like this?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:03 am

Tony

Subtle things like that are noticed by your instructor, and your instructor then subsequently makes the recommendation for you to be tested. And if your instructor(s) are doing their job, they will see to it that you don't embarrass yourself when you test (at least that's what I THINK we teachers should be doing...).

BTW, I have noticed the positive changes...

But one element of the test should and often is performing under stress. And I personally like the idea of some unknown element in the test. My personal opinion (Danger, danger!!) is that I think it is a GOOD thing that you really don't know what the sparring format is going to be like or the partner you will do prearranged kumite or bunkai with until the last minute. Used to doing continuous motion sparring? Then, by god, let's make you do point style. Been to a lot of WKA tournaments? Then let's make you do continuous motion. Done all the tournament scenes and the typical Uechi sparring? Then lets bring some trained hitmen in with suits and make you perform.

What? You mean you didn't practice for this EXACT format? GOOD!!! Are you going to be even more nervous? Good. Are you going to be confused and uncertain? Good. Is it going to make you look bad? Good, and so will everyone else. Now...how are you going to handle that?

And under those circumstances, who will do well, and who will fail miserably? And why is this important?

And as for the ones that did well, is it because they were "born fighters," or do they have a process that they can market? If they have a generalizable process, then they can make a living as a great instructor or master. If not, then they can be the gurus for a bunch of wannabe losers that have no identity of their own. Or...they can cannibalize the best students from other dojos as they show their abilities. But in the end, who has made the greatest contribution to the style?

Warning: These comments refer to fictitious characters. Any resemblance to real-life figures was pure dumb luck.

- Bill

Bruce Hirabayashi · Post by **Bruce Hirabayashi** » Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tony-San:
I should have also mentioned that another fringe benefit of practicing karate they way i do is that I am not "Two Tony's". Bringing the inner me to the outside and walking beside it makes me feel whole and calm inside with very little inner conflict. When i do have inner turmoil, it's not hard for me to find out why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Tony-san:

I like and quite agree with your thought process concerning training. For many of us (and perhaps the majority of us) Karate-do is much more than just self-defense. After all, as a Senior Master once explained to me, if the only reason you are doing Karate-do is to defend yourself, it's a lot easier to buy (and carry) a gun rather than put yourself through a lifetime grueling Karate-do training. (for any NRA members reading this post: I do realize that learning to use a gun properly takes many years of training as well ... however, I would imagine one would not, on average, get as many bruises / injuries while learning to use a gun

)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tony-San:
Does the test board look for things like this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I realize you probably meant the statement above to be rhetorical, but having just served on my 5th (or was it 6th?) Dan Test board, it made a direct hit my funny bone

Anyway: I have found that I have my hands reasonably full keeping up with and properly evaluating the quality of the "visible" techniques performed by 10+ candidates performing simultaneously in front of me. Determining whether the practice of Karate-do has made the candidates into better, more effective, complete, and happy (etc., etc.) people will have to wait until we've completed our clairvoyance training ....

Cheers,

Bruce Hirabayashi
Atlanta Uechi-ryu Society

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:17 am

Bill: Now that sounds like a challenge there. I like your idea because you must get involved with the candidate rather then puch them through the ISO9000 Certified process of Dan Testing.

Bruce: Throughout history, wisemen have hidden the secrets of the universe in riddles and fables and what not. In fact, I can measure depth by formulating a question that invokes a deeper layer of conciousness. I know what your saying, you can't measure depth by looking at someones Karate, BUT the portion of the test where you ask questions to the candidate is the perfect opportunity! For example, if you ask candidates what the relationship is between the Tiger, Dragon and Crane, more often then not you'll hear about how the Tiger is fast and furious and the Dragon uses sweeps and the Crane pecks the eyes out or something like that... once in a while you'll get someone who has actually discovered a PRINCIPAL here and it has become part of their foundation for self study in their art! In this way you can see who has actually sat down and pondered the concepts of Uechi and who has been pecking out of the Uechi Ryu bread pan!

Take care,
Tony

david · Post by **david** » Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

It appears the forums have had a chance to exhale, so to write. For a while there - and for many reasons we don't necessarily need to go into right now - the entire forum community seemed to have been spellbound by a hotbutton topic.

Spellbound...? Interesting, yes, definitely. Spellbound means being transfixed. I hope folks were just scanning, scanning the horizon for points of interests. Then off they should go.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Finis Origine Pendet - the end depends on the beginning.

The discussions pointed to the different "ends" that folks have in taking up the MA training. And, among, those with a similar "end", the discussion got confused by focusing on set points in the "process" such as "dan testing" or "competition." From the perspective of our "ends" we interject our thoughts on that point in time, on that format. In this way, we may have confused "waypoints" for "ends."

Finally, some of us have no "ultimate end" -- except death. It's all "process" and the integrity we carry and develop through it.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited April 18, 2002).]

Traveler in the Arts · Thu Apr 18, 2002 3:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tony-San:
Violence is Violence. If I can open the flood gate, I can make it work for me. With that thought in mind, when I am practicing Karate, it's for the sake of my karate and not the fringe benefits it can bring me. I would deal with each of the above scenarios in the same way, I would first say to myself "fuq it!" then I would say "go". and from that point on, I won't care what happens. So you see, there are only 2 obstacles for me to overcome before I turn into Primordial Man, other people have alot more....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tony describes his essentially immediate access to his "Primordial Man," which is something that he finds it necessary to control (as opposed to create) and that it is a virtue of his karate training that it helps him deal with this.
His remarks really speak to what I think is an important aspect of one's individual fighting mindset as applied to various sparring and/or real fighting venues. It seems to me this is the innate quality or skill that is akin to "eye-hand coordination" in sports involving a ball. You are either born with it or you or not. You can train for it specifically, but generally to become skilled at the highest level of application, e.g. highest level of self-defense ability in a street attack (analogously, to play professional sports), you must be initially endowed with this special skill, i.e. immediate access to your "Primordial Man." So, this is yet another interpretation of Bill's quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Finis Origine Pendet - the end depends on the beginning.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a quick probe which I think can help one get a feeling for where one is on this continuum of innate fighting mindset. Simply ask yourself whether or not when you sparr do you naturally, automatically view it as:

1. turned down real fighting, or
2. turned up tag with fists and feet.

So, in 1. you often find that the level that seems normal to you is considered to be on the boundary of permissible intensity by others, and in 2. you are often puzzled by the beast across from you who doesn't seem to understand that this is just a game.

Question.
Isn't innate fighting mindset the sine qua non (without which there is nothing) of the highest level of self-defense ability in a street attack? So, this is a MA version of one of those nature/nurture questions.

Best,
John

[This message has been edited by Traveler in the Arts (edited April 18, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:28 pm

I am usually a pretty "PC" kind of guy. I have to be that way to be a good manager in industry. It's also the right way to be in most circumstances.

In the "stepping out of the shower" anecdote, I made an anatomical reference that would make the vulnerability felt strictly a male thing (Oops!!

). As I thought about it, it suddenly dawned on me that I had only one anecdote to draw from, and it was one with a woman.

In the latter 1970s, I had a Ph.D. chemist, Rosanna, who studied karate with me. Rosanna was both your dear friend and a woman with a seriously sharp edge. She was a feminist through and through, and often would make men blush and squirm in a conversation (for reasons only she knew) by using the "c" word. It was just that certain something about her that made her whom she was. But to this day, I still consider her a very close friend. If you weren't a chauvinist, you could be showered with affection and loyalty. And if you had a contrary sense of humor (as Bruce Hirabayashi did), then you could easily push her buttons and incur her wrath. She was....Rosanna.

Well it seems we had this fellow that had drilled a hole in a wall of our workout gym (a general gym facility at UVa) that allowed him to peek into the dry-off room outside where all the women's shower stalls were. Well this psycho got hot over some woman (in our class) and decided he needed an even better look. So before the end of our workout, he slipped into the very last shower stall of the women's locker room. Well guess what? That was "Rosanna's stall." She threw her towel over the curtain rod, put her shampoo down, and threw the curtain open. There was the BG fully clothed in the shower stall, and Rosanna standing there with everything hanging out. So, what happened? After both of them screamed, Rosanna was the first to get her wits about her. She proceeded to beat the *&%$ out of the pervert. The other women stood in horror with their towels tightly wrapped around their bodies while Rosanna swung again and again, with breasts flying to and fro in the wind. The BG could only cover his head, and bounced from wall to wall to wall. Rosanna's only injury came when she missed the guy's head and landed a shoken on a brick wall. In the court testimony later on, the BG complained to the judge that "She beat me up!" It made the straight-faced judge suddenly lose his professional composure and break into a broad grin.

I found the pervert later on, shaking and hiding underneath a pile of benches in the men's locker room.

In that roomful of women outside their shower stalls, Rosanna was definitely the fighter among them.

And yes, she got her shodan several years later. And so did several of the towel holders.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Apr 19, 2002 5:36 am

This is turning out much better than I could have hoped for (better in the right direction

).

david wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Finally, some of us have no "ultimate end" -- except death. It's all "process" and the integrity we carry and develop through it.

Way before Bobby McFerron (sorry, not sure of the spelling) wrote the song Don't worry, be happy!, I was one of his big fans. The fellow is like the Mel Blanc of music. Most of his work is a cappella, relying on the hand beating his throat or face for percussion and his extrordinary range and control of timbre to create the perception of multiple instruments playing at once. He's one of a kind. In an interview about his work, Bobby talks about process being everything. To be a Bobby McFerron is to eat, breathe, and sleep your work for the sheer joy of it all. Yes, there is rare and innate talent. But Bobby has EXECUTED...

Often when I started large classes back at UVa, a student would want to know about the time and effort necessary to get a black belt. I usually responded by telling them that the folks who settled down and learned to enjoy training were the ones that would succeed. Being too focused on a goal without a love for the tremendous effort involved was a recipe for failure. The paradox was that the folks that appeared to be least concerned about the end were the ones more likely to achieve it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

fighting mindset the sine qua non (without which there is nothing) of the highest level of self-defense ability in a street attack

To some extent, yes.

Tony wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I would deal with each of the above scenarios in the same way, I would first say to myself "fuq it!" then I would say "go". and from that point on, I won't care what happens. So you see, there are only 2 obstacles for me to overcome before I turn into Primordial Man, other people have alot more

and John wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Here is a quick probe which I think can help one get a feeling for where one is on this continuum of innate fighting mindset. Simply ask yourself whether or not when you sparr do you naturally, automatically view it as:

1. turned down real fighting, or
2. turned up tag with fists and feet.

So, in 1. you often find that the level that seems normal to you is considered to be on the boundary of permissible intensity by others, and in 2. you are often puzzled by the beast across from you who doesn't seem to understand that this is just a game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I am at least comfortable with John describing it as a continuum. Some view it as a dichotomy (You are either a fighter or you are not) and I most definitely do not.

A number of issues come to mind. First of all, is there a difference between a fighter and a violent idiot? I most definitely think so, and frankly I believe there are far too many of the latter in our society. Many of them end up either dead or in prison. Many are the rude among us that are one step away from getting free plastic surgery. And then there is the "appropriate" response. Let's view some of what I put forward. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What happens when the BG jumps out of the bushes tonight - knife in hand - and asks for your wallet?

In my estimation, the violent idiot ends up getting slashed and possibly killed. Give the jerk the wallet! If you knew anything at all about proper knife fighting, you would know that there would be very few times (I never say never

) where you would "go there." Stupid and/or untrained fighters end up becoming Darwinian statistics. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What happens when someone stealthily sticks a gun to your back (or so you think), and asks you to get into a car?

Anyone that understands statistics about "the second crime scene" knows that NOW is probably the time to make a stand. If you are in public, that may be your last chance to save your life. Time to say no and/or fight. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What happens when you step out of the shower - butt ugly naked with Johnson hanging - and there is a prowler rummaging through your stuff in the nearby bedroom?

A true fighter is always prepared. A true fighter almost never is out of code yellow. The gun (or even a cell phone) is readily available, and not on the other side of the BG. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What happens when/if your wife slaps you for that nasty comment you might make?

Sadly enough, I know of more than one anecdote of a former member of special forces that ended up in jail because of an "inappropriate" response to this situation. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What happens if you are walking down a sidewalk in your neighborhood, and three teenagers decide they want to mess you up?

OK, here it gets sticky. Overwhelming force? Maybe... How good a fighter are you? How threatened are you? Is it all on or all off? Hmmm... Some people I know are good enough in their fighting skills to "play" with such punks until they got the message - and avoid prison time for wasting the neighborhood kids. This is WAY more than mindset and intensity. This gets to issues of technical ability, strategy, EQ, etc. At least - in my opinion - this is what maximizes the likelihood that the outcome will be COMPLETELY in your favor. The skill sets needed are numerous.

It can be very complex. To be otherwise is to be vulnerable. To hesitate when it is time to go is deadly. To overreact can be just as deadly, or get your fanny thrown in jail. Policemen and other law enforcement officers often go through quite a bit of training to learn (have ingrained) these dose/response concepts.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1. turned down real fighting, or
2. turned up tag with fists and feet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> More often than not I am a "2". However I learned long ago that there is a beast within. The beast scares me, because it completely takes over. I know there are a few predictable situations I need to avoid because I find it so bloody difficult to control the innate response. And when I squelch the response, I am tortured - sometimes for months.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 18, 2002).]