VICTOR
Thanks for the information ...I have always been fascinated by Tai Chi, The thing is though you hear so much about it being a fighting system....and yet no one seems to know how to fight with it, so it has always been a bit of a conundrum to me. If I could find proper fighting Tai Chi I think that I would probably settle with that.....anyway I've heard of a few teachers to visit....so hopefully I'll find the right one
I actually have Yang Jwing Mings first book....I bought it when it first came out.....mine is in a black cover, so it's pretty old.
We had an upsurge of interest in Tai Chi in the UK when a guy introduced the Wudang method ( from Wudang mountains).....and there were lots of competitions and full contact bouts..but they never really got to the heart of it. Seemed to me that they were doing the form, then having a boxing match....so it wasn't really Tai Chi fighting. HE used to demonstrate his "QI" by having people hit him in the throat or jump onto his stomache off a ladder.....which Bill was kind enough to explain.
I once heard a tale from a Chinese friend of mine ( no interest in MA's, only cricket and Best Bitter)..he was on a Bus late at night when a young rowdy youth was "creating" an old Chinese got up and told him to behave the youth became threatening and abusive .....the next thing my friend saw was this youth flying through the doors of the bus..he didn't know how the old man had done it but he was well impressed.
At one level Tai Chi is just technique, and to fight with it requires selling it properly. I guess from my karate interests, its application for self defense is a great deal of my focus, but though I've run it for a quater century, I'm hardly a spokesperson for great Tai Chi combat.
You could use the fighting forms (such as Yang's 88 sanshou) or the Wu 2 person sets, as a combat exercise, using tai chi principles to train at one point. But first, Tai Chi is essentially defensive, inserting its techniques into other's attacks, and using locking, levered takedowns and striking to stop that attack.
I suspect that's part of the problem with people trying to make fighting sport out of it, where essentially it's defensive. A similar problem with two aikido-ka trying to square off against each other. They end up attacking with something like 'bad karate' probably because they don't really trust their Tai Chi practice.
I also believe part of the problem is a definite need to practice tai chi fast, yet keep the essential techinque focus. If the individual doesn't stress the techniques fully, they shift into something else.
Now let's face it, the Chinese invented gunpowder. For a large part of reality most indivdiuals will never apply their training, and I'm personally most happy about that. So most aren't intersted in pushing it with a great deal of training, hence skill for combat will definately suffer.
In that sense I don't believe Tai Chi will likely take a strong showing in street combat in the near future.
In my case I'm a hobbiest, and Tai Chi is a very part-time study, but I do try and concentrate on the self defense potential. I've been teaching an outdoors class in New Hampshire (USA) these past 15 years, every Sunday morning (8 to 9am) and classes are only cancelled for rain. We've done Tai Chi at -20 f. and in deep snow. (Beijing does it outside in colder winters and hotter summers so why try and be 2nd class). But the winter classes, are hard for high skill development.
The other aspect is my few students, don't let me apply it on them any more. The first time I applied the Pull Back and Press I almost caved in my student's chest (by accident). The Tai Chi form, can generate great power very subtly, choose to belive that or not, its just what I found.
So I age and work older and slower, not by choice, but by reality.
As I know it Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming does put effort into realistic applications. My instructor, Ernest Rothrock, in Pittsburgh, likewise can make it sing, as can his instructor in Wu, Shum Leung in NYC. But of course they're far deeper into Tai Chi practice.
HI VICTOR
I think most of us.....if we are honest....somewhere in our minds have the image of a Tai Chi master..gently moving, at peace with himself,profound knowledge, and yet deadly .....the truth tends to be a bit different, although I am sure that such people do exist, I often feel that doing a move slowly will embedd it in our subconscious mind for use later......picture Chen Man Ching....Master of the five excellences..pretty profound stuff, not just a thug who can boogey, but pretty much the embodiement of a complete martial artist.
But seperating truth from fiction.
I know one tale ,a friend taught a hippy the movement " Grasp the sparrows tail"...the hippy was confronted by some skinhead types who started to push him around and generally be, not nice...he responded with said move and dislocated one of the guy's shoulders .......so I know what you mean about the subtle power contained within the form.
as I have said I know push hands........through knowing this I have learned to punch with my whole weight, A streetfight is often only a couple of punches....so, I guess there is a whole box of tricks just waiting to be opened..and we haven't even touched on the health benefits
jorvik wrote:They say in Tai Chi that pushing hands is the way to test your fighting ability...my take on that would be that Tai Chi fighting should resemble in some way pushing hands...that is why those videos interested me.....there ar other types of pushing hands one is were you punch and you are blocked so you circle your arm around to the inside and punch again..this is trained as a pushing hands exercise and looks similar to chi sao. Maybe tai chi is like karate were they punch and kick but in the kata there are throws, escapes and locks?
I've found a cheaper WC teacher as well.........he's one of Leung tings school..........( so/ I have my doubts)
Hey Jorvik,
As far as I know Push Hands is much the same, role wise, to Tai Chi as Chi Sao is to WCK. I do have my doubts as to the the way it is done, as well as, how complete the versions of the systems of TC are today. Even in those schools that have push hands, which any real TC must have, I tend to feel that there is something missing from the training. I would be interested in seeing a TC program that is focused on combat more so than what I've seen. I would think that someone is doing it - but finding it is another problem.
Whatever you choose to do I am sure you will do it well and make it more combat ready. WCK I think would lend itself to this end more readily but that's IMO. WCK offers the relaxation, subtle movements, balance manipulation and soothing slow forms (form 1) as in Tai Chi, but with the added bonus being that most WCK schools are fairly combat oriented, WCK is simple, direct and a bit easier to learn and apply IMO.
I wouldn't write off the Leung Ting guy right away. Despite the fact that I don't like Leung Ting in the least, he has produced a few good people from what I have seen and heard. This guy could be one of those good people, you never know. Last I heard there was a Moy Yat school in England somewhere but I don't know too much about it. Between the Leung Ting branch and William Chung Branch I would take the LT. Couldn't hurt to try it out before you make a final choice. Even the 'expensive' WCK guy would be worth a look see - check out the work of the senior students in chi sao or sparring. If what you see doesn't 'do it' for you then move on. I still think you should ask the expensive WCK guy to 'give you a demo'
Keep us updated! Wish I could shop around for schools with you.
Now the issue of Tai Chi's Health Benefits. And of course I can only go on my personal experience.
First, I find the practice of Tai Chi has brought a greater awareness of using my entire body in a technique. Part of the benefit in the sssslow motion practice. In turn that awareness, when you learn to pick up the speed a bit in Tai Chi, remains, and eventually you find you transfer this experience into your karate training. The more effectively you can use your full body motion, the greater power you can generate with a technique. After all the 'normal' (not sub-normal like myself) black belt can generate more power than the above-normal white belt in their technique. In part because they use their body motion more effectively. I find that Tai Chi does assist in the same way.
Second, if done incorrectly Tai Chi can be bad for your health. I've read articles about people having problems with their knees resulting from their Tai Chi practice. If one uses a technique incorrectly, you body can pay a price. That doesn't mean tai chi is a problem, but the individuals and perhaps teacher(s) involved, weren't making necessary corrections allowing incorrect technique to become harmful in the long run. So if you want to address Tai Chi and Health, it is important to not make it a panacea of virtue. It is simply what it is.
Third, the most obvious value is keeping people using a fuller range of their body motion. I've noticed aging its easier to do less and less and in fact lose ability because you no longer us it. About 25 years ago a senior Bank Officer worked in the HR department for 6 months till a new home was found for him. One day he came out, in shock and admitted he couldn't reach up on a shelf to get a book. Well he had spent his life not using his body, except for driving and setting at at desk greeting the public. And by un-use had lost the ability to raise his arms very high. I suggested he begin swinging a book in his hand, and in a weeks time he found he was regaining the ability to reach up.
What you don't use you loose.
In that sense, doing tai chi, at any level, as one ages, keeps you moving in a slow flowing pattern, using as much motion you can handle. This use of the body fights non-use. I personally feel this is Tai Chi's greatest legecy. Not combat, not meditation, but a non-impact exercise to help maintain range of motion.
As only a full time part time practitioner I can't give any story about how it healed my bad breath or the like. I suffer occaisional problems and illness, and some arthritis. But I keep doing my tai chi through it all.
And for a real, current heart rending/warming story to conclude.
I have a long term student with 15 years of training in Karate, and about 8 in Tai Chi. Last summer he stopped training. It took months before I heard from him. He's been hit with a 'mystery' disability, that 6+ months of testing, tons of doctors in Boston including test review by the Mayo clinic, haven't been able to determine what his problem is.
He's lost most abiltiy to control himself, to hardly stand (which can have his legs give out at any moment, etc. It's not Muscular Distrophy even if it sounds a little like it. [Be forwarned, a Surgeon assures me I'm totally incompetent to describe anything even remotely medical, so I really can't answer questions on this.]
One of my students, a surgeon who's not the Doctor of Record, has reviewed the testing being done, assuring that every possiblity has been tested multiple times. It's not poisioning, not a nervous disorder, not anything they can determine. And BTW he's extremely frustrated that they can't diagonse this condition.
And after 3 months in the hospital's realzing they couldn't treat what they couldnt' find, he returned home.
Well when he finally told us last fall, before he returned for 3 more months of testing and hospitilzation, what the problem was, I began visiting him to support his 'crisis' and to convince him to begin again his tai chi practice. We modified part of the form to be done sitting.
And it is the only physical exercise he can do with control. Working through various physical therapy to try and regain strength in his legs, it was the Tai Chi he practiced that amazed them.
Figure it or not.
Well about Christmas he was released to home, but several weeks later fell trying to get into bed from his wheel chair, and fractured his coxyx. Extreme pain and of course hospitalization again. And once again he's back to zero and still trying.
I await him to get well enough to return home and will try with Tai Chi to keep a little of control in his life.
Sure this is antidotal. Isn't most of our discussions.
Whether Tai Chi will help him, or make him believe he can still do something with control, I don't care.
Hi Victor.
My Hao style teacher used to ride a harley-davidson had a pony tail and was covered in tatoos ..........but, he was one of the nicest,easiest going people I have ever met There were two things that I liked best in that club, pushing hands and Chi Kung.......I can be very dynamic, or very quiet and static....it's the in between I find difficult.......my form was always rubbish, but I was good at pushing hands......and tremendous at " Standing like a tree", I don't know if you are familiar with that pose ( I imagine that you are ) but I think your friend might find that very valuable, I certainly have, 5 minutes a day of that seems to be just right.......I don't know why and I don't care, but I strongly recommend it for serious feelings of wellbeing ....I think that my Hao teacher cured himself from a serious car crash using Tai Chi ( no magic...just gentle exercise and relaxation) JIM
Thanks for your advice on the WC....I'm still trying to motivate myself to find a club that fits in with my schedule...I think that the first one I will look at is the Leung Ting school....my friend was a part of that organisation and he said he was going...but I'll keep you informed ( ......And seek your advice if I may? )
but I would focus more on finding a good teacher than trying to track down some esoteric style or teacher thereof. I'd say there are very few people who can fight using tai chi and fewer still who's primary focus it to teach tai chi from a fighters perspective, not to say they don't exist.
Hi Jim
I phoned the Leung Ting guy up ...and he charges less for 4 hours instruction than the expensive guy does for 1. I've been meaning to go and train there but...well, dark cold nights .......but I'll go soon.
Just thinking ever hear any tales of Leung Jan? the King of WC....in fact, have you seen the movie " The Prodigal Son"....supposed to be the best WC movie made.
Hi Kerry
I knew that you didn't know that I was from the UK ..........I was walking up a very cold welsh mountain this morning....and it was wonderful. and I got to the top with my missus and the three little ones in tow, sometimes we walked through cloud and sometimes we saw brilliant sunlight ...but we were all glad to be home........hot cup of tea, and just nice........a fine day
jorvik wrote:Hi Jim
I phoned the Leung Ting guy up ...and he charges less for 4 hours instruction than the expensive guy does for 1. I've been meaning to go and train there but...well, dark cold nights .......but I'll go soon.
Just thinking ever hear any tales of Leung Jan? the King of WC....in fact, have you seen the movie " The Prodigal Son"....supposed to be the best WC movie made.
Hi Jorvik,
Yeah, I saw that movie years ago at the height of my training. There were three videos floating around the school. Each movie was set in a different time during the evolution of WCK. I don't remember that one too well though so maybe I'll rent it. I only remember the first one with young miss Wing Chun forced to work in the well, where she learned to develop her 'short range power.'
By the way the age old story of Yim Wing Chun being the actual founder has been largely debunked as of late. They say now that this was all a big cover story to keep the Manchus from discovering the true source and purpose of the training. Also, all of the symbols including the name of the founder hint to the intention of overthrowing the nasty Manchu government.
Even if the founder was not a woman the analogy is a very important teaching aid. It was always said that the best Wing Chun hands are those like a woman - and this is very true. The objective in chi sao is to have hands as gentle as a woman and use as little energy as possible. If you can play your chi sao in this way and also control your partner you're on the right track.
I read the other post where you describe where you live. It sounds like a dream. I suppose your lucky to find any WCK out (up?) there.
Good luck and let me know how it goes with the LT guy.
One thing that gets me about them is in their videos they seem to abuse their students. In many of the videos they really seem to be needlessly beating the living $hit out of the students for the camera which I think is in really bad taste. Hopefully this guy has his head together.
...I have always been fascinated by Tai Chi, The thing is though you hear so much about it being a fighting system....and yet no one seems to know how to fight with it, so it has always been a bit of a conundrum to me. If I could find proper fighting Tai Chi I think that I would probably settle with that.....anyway I've heard of a few teachers to visit....so hopefully I'll find the right one 
.......so I know what you mean about the subtle power contained within the form.
I have my doubts)
..........but, he was one of the nicest,easiest going people I have ever met 
....I think that my Hao teacher cured himself from a serious car crash using Tai Chi ( no magic...just gentle exercise and relaxation)
.......but I'll go soon.
