The Good and the Bad of Prearranged Kumites.

[Rick Wilson]

The Good and the Bad of Prearranged Kumites.

I know, I know, yet another thread on prearranged Kumite.

Well one thread is playing out the big discussion on them. Another will, I hope, be taking the direction of discussing the moves and principles of Dan Kumite itself.

So why this thread?

Well whenever I am trying to figure something out I often put myself on the other side and see what I can learn. This is how I formalized the principles I could find in Kyu Kumite.

In addition, it seemed from the other threads that perhaps we were all arguing slightly different things.

So I thought I would post what I felt might be the good and the bad about practicing Yakusoku (prearranged) Kumites from a general training viewpoint. I will leave that other thread to deal with my specific issues around Dan Kumite.

First, a Yakusoku or prearranged Kumite means a set of preset attacks with preset responses.

What are the purposes of a set or Prearranged Kumite:

1) Students are given a basic set of movements and principles on how to deal with an attack.

2) Because everyone knows what they are to do this is a safe zone for training.

3) Because everyone knows what they are to do they can concentrate on form.

4) Students who may never have been in a physical conflict can become acclimatized to being attacked.

5) As the training increases, because everyone knows what they are to do, the attacks can begin to be made with full intent and commitment, thus allowing the student to experience that level of aggression being focussed on them.


Working on the same side of this argument, I would venture that this is where George and I may no longer be arguing the same topic, because I think we would both agree the training of Prearranged Kumites has to be taken further:

1) The level of the intensity of the attack has to be cranked up even higher with the attacker’s sole goal being to tag his/her partner (tag not kill). The attack may not vary but the timing can be played with.

2) The person responding to the attack begins to vary their responses to fit the every changing difference that exist in different partner sizes, partners ending up in different positions, and the experimentation of various principles used to respond.

3) The Kumite attacks, while being a set of specific attacks, can be done with no set order of the attacks.

4) Introduce different elements: in the dark, only able to use one arm, the attack is unexpectedly with a weapon, outside in uneven terrain etc.

Okay so welcome to how I see a Yakusoku program should be done. Probably the same type of thing George has in mind. This is not bad training to a point and when it is not the sole focus of the training and is supplemented by other drills that deal with impromptu attacks (as George has stated).

So why then do I have issues with prearranged Kumites?

1) How many schools train Prearranged Kumites as stated above? As George comment they are often robotic and lacking in spirit and understanding.

2) How many students, or teachers for that matter, understand the principles being used? Or are they just mimicking movements?

3) Is the use of principles lost in the transition of preset movements as opposed to having to learn and apply them?

4) The attacks (in the current Kumites) do not reflect real attacks.

5) The attacks should take the respondent into all ranges of fighting.

6) The respondent should be able to transition any attack into close range fighting. (There must be in close fighting!)

7) The training of prearranged Kumites often becomes like the training of many techniques – you begin to think “if they do this then I must do this”. The training of understanding the use of Uechi principles against lines of force is lost in the list of attacks and responses.

8. If prearranged Kumites are over used they can impede a students ability to go beyond and improvise to use Uechi principles against any line of force.

9) There can be a false confidence built if the training is not taken beyond the basic. Yes you get the feel for an all out attack but you know what that attack will be and you do not have to read it as well as if it was anything that could come your way.

10) The last general issue I have was best articulated by Van on the big thread. There is simply a limit to the readiness that can be garnered from prearranged work.

11) So this may all seem to have defeated my own position, but then I have yet to return to the initial purpose of the prearranged Kumite: The student is taught the principles of Uechi Ryu. And it is here that I do not feel our Kumite are that effective.

So in the end the response to my general issues about prearranged Kumites may be dealt with by the proper use of them as merely one training tool amongst many other tools. But the Kumites should be tailored to the school’s use of Uechi.

And yes this will lead us over to that other thread where I take issue with the principles and techniques used in Dan Kumite.

{Spelling of Japanese words edited for accuracy - Bill}

[Bill Glasheen]

Rick

Good thread, and good start!!

I'd like to add some comments here.

So why then do I have issues with prearranged Kumites?

...

5) The attacks should take the respondent into all ranges of fighting.

6) The respondent should be able to transition any attack into close range fighting. (There must be in close fighting!)

First, you are showing your bias. You are redundant here. I agree that "There must be in close fighting!" However you covered that in dot point 5. You and others see Uechi Ryu as an in-close fighting style. The truth is that our style works pretty well at ALL fighting ranges. Even the TKD kicking range, where we can bait the high kicker to come after us with his tournament kick so we can dump his a*ss.

I would argue that we fight well from a distance - as evidenced in the footwork in sanseiryu. Watch our Uechi WKF fighters some time. They stand from afar in those sanseiryu deep stances, and cover a lot of distance before coming in. It's an important skill - especially for tournament fighting. It's an important skill when fighting more than one individual.

We do pretty well fighting in the "typical" karate distances. Sadly though our kumite dwell on this.

What distinguishes Uechi Ryu from other typical karate styles is that we do very well, thank you, in bad breath range. It's not necessarily where we want to end up, but it's a place to go - particularly against those not comfortable in that range.

IMO, our kumite (prearranged and freeform) should reflect a balance of ranges, and show the variety of things we can do in those different ranges.

10) The last general issue I have was best articulated by Van on the big thread. There is simply a limit to the readiness that can be garnered from prearranged work.

Two points here.

First, yakusoku kumite are a tool. You cannot build a house with just a hammer. However you'd be hard pressed to build a house without it. This serves a limited purpose, just like any other tool in our martial toolkit. Nothing in our toolkit serves all purposes, and this includes yakusoku kumite - period. It's unfair of others to imply otherwise (strawman tactics). It's stupid for yakusoku kumite proponents to imply otherwise (delusion).

Second, few kumite tools readily available to the teacher and student do much better in terms of breadth of benefit. Scenario training often requires expen$ive equipment, which few dojo seem willing to purchase (a minimum necessary level of equipment in a standard dojo). Sparring without equipment will get your butt sued (eventually). Working with some equipment like the bulletman suit is like fighting the Michelin man (Bibendum).

The attacks ain't real - the same criticism given to the tool in question.

Also...scenario training eventually leads to the same comfort zone we try to push people out of.

There are options in the toolkit, but not as many as people appear to imply when hurling criticisms. Rumors of the demise of yakusoku kumite are greatly exaggerated.

So in the end the response to my general issues about prearranged Kumites may be dealt with by the proper use of them as merely one training tool amongst many other tools. But the Kumites should be tailored to the school’s use of Uechi.

Exactly!

And finally... You missed a point here, and one Raffi and I (and Stephen Perry, and others) keep trying to make. Uechi fighting isn't just going inside. Uechi fighting can and should also be about proper footwork (tai sabaki). Most Uechi dojo ****** in teaching this. Most Uechi fighters look like
Rockem Sockem Robots in the sparring ring. Few know how to do anything other than go straight in or back up. Few understand and apply the concept of movement needed to fight more than one opponent. It's a shame; the kata are repleat with superb footwork. We just don't do a good job of applying them in the classroom.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I also want to add one of my own biases, shared by a few others (Jack Summers, Mike Murphy, Joe Pomfret). IMO, Uechi Ryu has a very, very interesting relationship with the grappling arts. It is both a good stand-up defense against them as well as a great transition to them. I'd like to see that explored more in the yakusoku kumite.

All I see in Okinawan Kumite are typical vanilla Kahrahtee striking techniques, meant for the typical wooden-floored dojo.

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

Hi Bill,

What's the utility of yakosuko kumites in developing street defense reactions, explosive weaponry, opponent-engaging mindset and fluid footwork (which you might have covered already)? In short, in keeping with the theme of this thread, are kumites "good" or "bad" in developing the above traits?

And do you think the robotic character of the kumites and of Uechi-Ryu fighters are a product of the students themselves, the style or the teachers?

Gene

[Gene DeMambro]

So this may all seem to have defeated my own position, but then I have yet to return to the initial purpose of the prearranged Kumite: The student is taught the principles of Uechi Ryu. And it is here that I do not feel our Kumite are that effective. (emphasis added)

Maybe not, They are taught certain, discrete principles which are no means designed to be a comprehensive representation of Uechi-Ryu. As Bill and GEM-Sensei have said several time, nothing we do "serves all purposes, and this includes yakusoku kumite".

Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

Gosh, Gene. I'd be the first to admit I'm not an authority on all those topics. But I'll comment where I think I have something to offer.

utility of yakosuko kumites in developing street defense reaction...

I think they are not so good for developing specific responses - by themselves. Prearranged work can't teach you to think on your feet. However I think they are good for helping you improve how you do the responses that do come forth on the street. It is an exercise of fundamentals, like passing a ball back and forth with a partner on the basketball court (chest pass, overhead pass, bounce pass...).

...explosive weaponry...

You get out of it what you put into it. If your heart's not in the exercise, it won't do you any good. If you don't push the envelope, it won't do you any good.

...opponent-engaging mindset...

Hmmm... Lots of variables here. It depends on how you do it. If I practice doing these things at competitions in front of a bunch of judges and risk screwing up, well I am practicing the stress mindset while engaged in reasonably complex motor movement. If I do these things in front of teachers on a test panel, well I am practicing stress mindset while engaged in reasonably complex motor movement. If I get Dr. Ian to give me a parasympathetic block before doing these things in the dojo, or if I take a hit of methamphetamine before starting practice, well I am getting a taste of the stress mindset while engaged in reasonabley complex motor movement. If I make someone try hard enough to rip my body in half if I f*** up my defense, well....

All BIG "ifs."

This has two benefits. It is a "sniff test" for the level of dexterity needed to do what I hope to do when the fecal material hits the rotating propeller. It also helps in terms of the learning (internalization) of those motor movements.

But...we all know that much of the stress associated with "the unknown" is gone. This is true of most dojo exercises that you can do and still have students come back the next day.

...and fluid footwork...

Like all these things - as you practice, so will you do. If you go forwards and backwards the way 95% of people practice various yakusoku kumite, well you are going to ingrain habits that'll get you hurt or killed one day. If you practice stepping off the line of a raging, attacking beast, you will be positively reinforced to do that again. Been there, done that. I had the... er ... pleasure of teaching a 315-pound gifted athlete (that's all the weight he would admit to...) how to do and then refine kyu and dan kumite. While doing so and this guy was making lots of mistakes, I have to tell you that I learned A LOT. I feel a better fighter for having survived the experience. And the few times I was stupid enough to "stand there and take it," I learned some very painful lessons. I would think 'This is what it must be like to be a small female in class facing an a**hole that thinks I don't belong in a man's game.' The experience made me a better teacher.

The bigger they are, the harder they come, the better the lessons learned on fluid footwork - IF you practice fluid footwork. Most do not. (I think Van agrees with me here.)

In short, in keeping with the theme of this thread, are kumites "good" or "bad" in developing the above traits?

I believe they serve a role in the grand scheme of things. But they are merely a piece of the whole training cirriculum.

And do you think the robotic character of the kumites and of Uechi-Ryu fighters are a product of the students themselves...

Sometimes.

...the style...

Not really. Only the (bad) interpretations of the kata.

...or the teachers?

Sometimes.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Part of the problem with any prearranged work is commitment. If your heart isn't into it, or if you don't do the time, the work is useless. Your criticism is a foregone conclusion.

His playground moves, circus shots, and hotdog passes were considered outrageous during his era...but Maravich produced huge numbers, first as the all-time leading scorer in NCAA history and later as a potent force for both the Atlanta Hawks and the New Orleans Jazz.

- NBA History

"PISTOL" PETE MARAVICH was a basketball legend long before some of the greats known by this generation. Long-retired stars like Magic Johnson owe their "showtime" skills to this pioneer.

Pete and his coach father were legendary in terms of their dedication to prearranged drills. Just on dribbling... Pete would watch one half a movie while seated on the right and boucing with his right hand, and the other half while seated on the left side and bouncing with his left. That's nearly two hours straight of dribbling in a theatre - and driving everyone nuts in the process. He used to hang out the back tailgate while his dad drove home, and dribble the ball on the street while the car was moving. All the way home! He would make bets on whether or not he would do this. A typical day might consist of first doing 500 around-the-back passes against the wall with his right hand (done with continuous motion), and then another 500 with the left. That would be just for that technique.

Here's a sample of two drills Pete teaches.

Slap pass

Flip flap jack

It's worth purchasing a video of Pete in action on the court - in gametime stress, appearing to make things up as he goes along. Yes, sort of... But every freeform great like Pete (whether it be basketball player or jazz musician or fighter) has dedicated himself to fundamentals. And this mastery of fundamentals requires much prearranged work.

Are there faster ways to get results? Maybe. Do most have what it takes to get that good (in terms of time commitment and dedication)? No.

- Bill

[Rick Wilson]

Hi Bill:

Nice response.

Some further comments...

“First, you are showing your bias. You are redundant here. I agree that "There must be in close fighting!" However you covered that in dot point 5. You and others see Uechi Ryu as an in-close fighting style. The truth is that our style works pretty well at ALL fighting ranges. Even the TKD kicking range, where we can bait the high kicker to come after us with his tournament kick so we can dump his a*ss.

I would argue that we fight well from a distance - as evidenced in the footwork in sanseiryu. Watch our Uechi WKF fighters some time. They stand from afar in those sanseiryu deep stances, and cover a lot of distance before coming in. It's an important skill - especially for tournament fighting. It's an important skill when fighting more than one individual.”


Yes no doubt my bias is showing although I would say the aggressive footwork of Sanseirui is actually used to cover distance to get to in close range. While we do fine at any range I feel the more square presentation of our stance in our Kata and more than pedantic applications of the Wauke are best used in close.


“Also...scenario training eventually leads to the same comfort zone we try to push people out of.”


I have red this a couple of times in threads now, and I think that, while there would be some truth to it, I also think it is due to learning to control the adrenaline which is the entire point to the training.


“And finally... You missed a point here, and one Raffi and I (and Stephen Perry, and others) keep trying to make. Uechi fighting isn't just going inside. Uechi fighting can and should also be about proper footwork (tai sabaki). Most Uechi dojo ****** in teaching this. Most Uechi fighters look like Rockem Sockem Robots in the sparring ring. Few know how to do anything other than go straight in or back up. Few understand and apply the concept of movement needed to fight more than one opponent. It's a shame; the kata are repleat with superb footwork. We just don't do a good job of applying them in the classroom.”

Actually I didn’t miss this because in my school movement is vital and would be part of our expression of Uechi. Getting in doesn’t necessarily mean in front. To get to the back of the aggressor takes the best footwork.


“I also want to add one of my own biases, shared by a few others (Jack Summers, Mike Murphy, Joe Pomfret). IMO, Uechi Ryu has a very, very interesting relationship with the grappling arts. It is both a good stand-up defense against them as well as a great transition to them. I'd like to see that explored more in the yakusoku kumite.”

Absolutely agree although now my expression of grappling is more in the Qinna (Chi na) expression as opposed to jujitsu like (although my old training still steps in often).