Sand Throws

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John Giacoletti
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Sand Throws

Post by John Giacoletti »

I wonder how effective sand throws (sunacocki) might be as a deterent to an attack and as an opportunistic strategy to take advantage of momentary blindness and follow with a finishing technique?

Sand throws appear in the eccu (oar) kata and in some early bo kata. The eccu kata are said to be 600-800 years old which would date them around 1200 - 1400 A.D.

Mark Bishop in his book Zen Kobudo describes an Okinawan drawing dating from 1242:
Close Observation of this drawing reveals that Okinawans of the time used "sabami [sampans] as war canoes, each with a square shield at the bow protecting an archer and paddled by a number of men using eku-type paddles like those seen in modern Kobudo and Te practice. Standing behind the archers are figures holding metal weapons in their right hands. This is a clear indication that at the time, approximately 1243, martial arts with well-made bladed weapons had developed into organized military arts....
For the eccu kata to have been preserved and survived so long in a historical sense suggests that the embodied techniques were effective.

Sand throws in the eccu kata are of three types.

1.) The blade of the oar is scooped into the sand, sea-water, shell mix and thrown underhand into the face of the assailant.

2.) As a prelude to a thrust with the weapon, one slides one's foot into the sand and with a lifting straight-legged kick, throws the sand into the face of the assailant.

3.) In the Shinpo Matoyoshi version, one graps a handful of sand and throws it in the face of the assailant in additon to methods 1 & 2.

In all three versions, the throw is followed by thrusts and/or pokes to the throat.

In the bo kata, the sand is thrown with a close to the foot underarm scooping motion and pitched into the on-rushing opponent's eyes. In Sakagawa No Kun dating probably from the early 1800's, the sunacocki sand throws have been also been used as groin strikes.

Given that Okinawan sand is probably a quite fine wet mixture of coral, shell and limestone, would sand throws work?

Would they work against a Samurai with a katana, defusing his attack long enough for an effective follow through with the oar or bo?
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gmattson
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Post by gmattson »

That the "Ninja" carried sand with them for the purpose of blinding/distracting their opponents.

I was enjoying your post while thinking about the modern equivalent New Yorkers might use... Dog crap on the sidewalks instead of sand! :)
GEM
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Sochin
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Post by Sochin »

Mornin' John,

I've enjoyed practice out on the many beaches here on our Island and can say with some authority that a round bo does not scoop and throw sand in the least. It just cuts right thru it.

Even if you swing it around the head a couple of times and strike the sand to your side to get a shower of sand to the front, very little sand is moved.

It has long been my belief that bo kata with such moves had to have a different interpretation unless it is considered as eku practice with a bo.

The sand throws that you labeled 2 and 3 are new to me: before a thrust, our foot typically comes back toward our other knee to add a 'drop step' into the thrust and we have no hand scooping motions at all in bo kata.

Are these kata on the net anywhere?
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f.Channell
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Post by f.Channell »

In the modern world substitute change or a set of keys for the same distraction.

I would put pepper spray under the same category as well.

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John Giacoletti
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Sand Throws

Post by John Giacoletti »

I wonder how thick a 1300 AD bo was?

Sounds to me Ted that fine dry sand would not be picked up by a bo but would perhaps work fine with an oar.

The Gulf Coast Florida sand is quite fine with a lot of shell composition. Wet sand will load up on a tapered 1 1/4 inch bo.

Shinyu Guishi Sensei performs Sejun No Bo on his Pangainoon Video series tape 4. Sakagawa No Kun is widely available. Both bo kata have two sand throws.

The Tsunami video for Matayoshi and the Panther Productions Series Bo Tape #2 show the fist full of sand throws.

My point in asking these questions is simply to show that sand thrown in the face of an advasary as incorporated in these ancient kata gives the bo or oar user an unsuspected advantage over an opponent with a sword which the bo or oar fighter can take advantage of using his longer 6 foot weapon.

Strategy and deception and of course the individual skill level have to be part of the self-defense or military equation.

Fred's use of contemporary pocket items are a similar use of surprise and deception to gain an advantage.
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T W Armstrong

Post by T W Armstrong »

I'm not expecting to fight any swords men in the near future. And there's not much in the way of beaches around home. But a handfull of pocket change to the face has always been an effective entry. Guess the GST isn't all bad :wink:
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

I train with Sakagawa no Kon and have never seen much credibility to the concept of those moves being sand throws, at least not with a bo. But that does not mean they are not throws, there are a variety of objects you could flick at someone with the tip of a bo. Twigs and small sticks work the best, and could definitely be distracting to an opponent.

I do agree that those moves translate easily into rising strikes, to the groin, a leading leg/arm, or to try to knock an opponents weapon out of his hand. As a rising strike is usually how I envision it while training unless I happen to be practicing flicking objects with the tip of the bo.
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David Hayward
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Post by David Hayward »

Like you guys I think there are a number of interpretations to this move. I did spend some time last year in Okinawa and got to train with Seiko Itaksu Sensei (9th Dan Matayoshi Kobudo). Interestly he corrected me in that the bo comes thru in its usual arc however only picks up the sand (or whatever) about 6 inches or so in front of the front foot and is flicked with plenty of bottom hand pushing the material towards the opponents face. This gives a much better result.
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John Giacoletti
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Post by John Giacoletti »

Thank you David and Glenn for the experiential input. The origin of the sunacocki is of course with the eccu and not with the bo.

The Okinawan eccu has a pointed tip and it's quite easy to scoop up lots of sand, water, shell due to the width of the paddle. The wet sand and water mix from weapon throws, kicks lifting sand into the face and hand throws would seem to be a deterient even to a samurai with a helmet.

I don't care how good the swordsman is, his efficiency is next to nill if he can't see and you can then wack him with your bow and arrows or spear or eccu.

Gushi Sensei also 9th dan teaches Sejun No Bo with the underhand draw being very close to the side of the foot and then flicked upwards. If the bo is held to the side at an angle it won't pick up sand.
the bo comes thru in its usual arc however only picks up the sand (or whatever) about 6 inches or so in front of the front foot and is flicked with plenty of bottom hand pushing the material towards the opponents face. This gives a much better result.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

It's important to step back and think about the principles involved. If not, then like a dog you are fixated on the finger pointing at the moon.

When I teach shomen hajiki (front snapping) in Uechi hojoundo, I often point out that the finger flicks to the eyes are metaphors. Anything you happen to have in your hands at the time will do.

Others already have pointed out the use of keys, pepper spray, and pocket change. But most anything works here. Picture yourself at a subway stop in New York waiting for the train to arrive. Bad guy makes his move. What will you do? Well, it depends.

What about that cup of Starbucks coffee right there in your hand? If the Okinawans had Starbucks, don't you think their kata might be different? ;)

My special forces martial artist instructor taught me a few "tricks" to use in special situations. One of my favorites is what you can do when faced with a knife fighter doing the monkey dance. Rich knows that one... ;)

I always remember when asked to translate in my French class, that the teacher gave extra points for "good" translation. That means knowing how to bridge the cultural and temporal gaps so that the translation made sense.

An excellent exercise for a self-defense-oriented martial arts class is to ask the class to come up with a dozen different contemporary applications of an anachronistic technique within kata. You'd be surprised what creative minds can come up with. And then when you next do that move in kata...

It's the reason we still read Shakespeare.

Bill
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

Bill Glasheen wrote: What about that cup of Starbucks coffee right there in your hand? If the Okinawans had Starbucks, don't you think their kata might be different? ;)
Throw away my caffeine?!?! Never!!! I'm trying to master how to fight without spilling a drop! I'm using Jackie Chan's Drunken Master movies as my guide. :lol:
Glenn
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Others already have pointed out the use of keys, pepper spray, and pocket change. But most anything works here. Picture yourself at a subway stop in New York waiting for the train to arrive. Bad guy makes his move. What will you do? Well, it depends.
Dont forget Hocking a loogie in there face ....... charming eh !!!

funny how big a response you can get from that one though ....
T W Armstrong

Post by T W Armstrong »

it's on then!

Elicits a perdictable reaction, and in some cases a killing rage.

Suicide in some circles, that spit can not be wiped from the face until the perpetrator of the demeaning attack is also wiped from the face of the earth.
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John Giacoletti
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TW Armstrong/Yellowknife

Post by John Giacoletti »

Substitute a Canoe Paddle or a hockey stick for the oar.

A good whack to the knee takes most men out. Grip it like an axe. Neck works fine too.

Over time the Okinawan eccu developed cuts and barnacles on the blade - serrations like a saw or pruning hook. Slap that old package and draw back real slooow :wink:
There is much to make of every moment.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Yeah I better rely on my attacker not being intent on doing me harm :roll:

granted you better be able to back it up . Lets face it tactics always have there up and down side
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