Let us try talking about Clubbells -- again.

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Rick Wilson

Let us try talking about Clubbells -- again.

Post by Rick Wilson »

Let us try talking about Clubbells -- again.

There was a request for information and discussion on Clubbells and it got off track.

As I was involved in taking it off track I felt I should give it another try and perhaps do better with my responses.

Clubbells are a modern take on a very old method of strength training.

Commonly called Indian Clubs because they were often used in India, but they were also common in Persia, Turkey, Russia and similar geographic areas.

Similar approaches can be seen in other old instruments: maces, gada , meels, jori, karela and ekka.

Basically all tools where one end has more weight and they are swung.

These often had martial relationships as well with direct links to weapon training.

In the late 18th century Indian clubs moved into Britain.

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In 1861 the tradition moved to the USA.

However, what caught on most in Britain and USA was the very light Indian Clubs of 1 or 2 pounds.

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Some exercises were even adopted by the US Army in 1914.

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Strong men used to demonstrate with a variety of heavy Indian club-like apparatuses.

However, their uses drifted off.

So the idea of swinging a club is not new but rather very old.

The Clubbell design of Scott Sonnon’s is a modern version and if you look at some of the old really large wooden clubs you can see why a nice and slimmed down metal version is more efficient.

Scott Sonnon’s 45 pound clubbells (The largest he has):

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Scott Sonnon and a 15 pound clubbell:

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Old large Indian clubs:

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But the question here is: Why Clubbells?

The goal is not to disparage other training but to explain what you can get out of Clubbell training as I see it (sadly I have not conducted any blind testing. :wink: )

The first difference I noticed was the appearance of weight.

A five pound mini-clubbell does not seem very heavy but most people estimate the weight of the mini-clubbells (5 pounds) as 10 to 15 pounds.

This is due to the displaced centre of gravity. Rather than grasping the weight at the centre of gravity you are grasping the clubbell out on the end of a lever away from the weight thus away from the centre of gravity.

When swinging the clubbell this displaced centre of gravity is emphasized as the weight pulls away from you.

Because of the swinging actions often used in the movement of the clubbells this pulling away from you by the weight it is a very different experience and workout than any other tools I have used for weight training.

The effect of momentum trying to rip the clubbell from your hand that is created by the swing means you must focus on gripping the clubbell. The effect this has on grip strength and forearm power is profound in my personal experience.

Understand I have done wrist curls and plates on strings as I roll them up but none of them have compared to clubbells – for me anyway.

So for Uechi folk and other martial artists where grip strength is important then clubbells work this area very well.

The other effect a swing has is that that weighted centre of gravity is moving on an arch, a curve. The location of the pressure is moving and you must move through that range of motion with the strength to control and hold onto the clubbell.

And this is where, for me, I see not only the health benefits but the martial benefits.

Flexibility is one thing and we often think that is what we are after but flexibility can come without strength.

What we need is the widest, broadest range of motion possible AND strength at every point in that range of motion.

Flexibility can give you a large range of motion but it does not necessarily mean you have strength throughout the movement. Making circular movements with Clubbells demands that you have strength through the entire range of motion.

So the Scott Sonnon approach is to focus on mobility as the term to think of and work towards rather than flexibility. Semantics to some but to some of us an important distinction.

The modernization of the design adds to the usability of the tool.

Being metal it can be heavier but smaller than a wooden club. Also being metal it is structurally stronger (doesn’t chip or break easily).

However, being metal mean the earlier versions also did some damage so a coating was added to prevent unnecessary scratching and dinting etc.

Being metal the length of the handle could be lengthened and stay strong. This allows for a micro-adjustment to the effective weight of the clubbell by choking up in it as you would a baseball bat.

The handle also has a blend of enough “grip” to make it easier to hang on to and not so much that the normal shifting in your hand will tear you up. Not too much, not too little, but just enough.

They also have a screwed on knob to help keep the handle from sliding out of your hand.

I have used barbells, and dumbbells and machines but the clubbell is different.

Picture a simple press.

I bring a dumbbell up to my chest and pressing upwards extending my arm. Definitely benefits gained no question.

Now try to picture the same weight but in the form of a baseball bat. I bring the bat to my chest with the muzzle or top of the bat pointing up. I press that bat up extending my arm. Not only must I press that weight up but I must also maintain the balance of the bat with my wrist and forearm or else it will tip over and fall.

Not advocating better or worse but rather pointing out a difference due to structural design.

And on a personal note I find the need to keep control over the clubbell and monitor its line of travel far more mentally engaging, but this is just a personal preference.
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Post by IJ »

Thanks for bringing this back online, Rick.

Here's a serious question for you about clubbells which you can answer from your experience or via Scott. I've gotten myself into some minor shoulder trouble recently, and I know over-the-horizontal motions (eg, throwing sports) are particularly hard on those rotator cuff muscles and also can exacerbate impingement syndromes, although millions obviously perform these activities daily without any trouble. Do you know anything about the use of the clubs in shoulder rehab? If people's experience is / has been positive then I'd be able to consider trying them out...
--Ian
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Hi Ian.

This is only my personal story and I can also relate Laird’s experiences.

First of all I would recommend starting with the Intu-Flow and mini-clubbells and then work into the larger clubbells.

I made a post to Vicki I think covers things so I will taylor it for here:

Clearly I am not a medical person so please keep that in mind.

My thoughts on joint mobility and mobility recovery for issues that do not include a damaged structure that needs attending relate solely to my own experiences with the products.

I have had a bad shoulder since damaging it in High school football. A great massage person got me to the point it was functional but the range of motion (and clicking noises) was no where near what I needed it to be.

I ordered Scott Sonnon’s Intu-Flow/Xtension/mini-clubbells and FlowFit 2 as a start.

When I first did Intu-Flow I thought – just another warm up program but I stayed with it and to my great surprise my body began to feel different after about three weeks. Very different. Frankly things began to feel better.

Back then I could not do any of the FlowFit 2 movements, but now only two remain out of my reach -- working on it.

Intu-Flow is about a third or fourth generation program that was once called Warrior Wellness. It was developed so that Scott Sonnon could recover his mobility from years of hard martial arts training and competition.

The guidelines as you train the program are to move to the point of discomfort. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is no pain or discomfort and 10 is the worst pain you have ever experienced then you go to a 3 or 4. Discomfort but NO pain. By doing this you constantly challenge your body to increase the range of motion but never to exceed what it can do without damaging yourself.

So my arm circles with one arm were not wide or big in anyway and much smaller than the other arm. However, I managed to be smart enough (for a change) not to push “through the pain” (unlike my drill this is an inappropriate place for it.)

Now BOTH my arms do a full circle as big as humanly possible in ALL directions (up, down, left and right side, front and back) with ease and no pain at all.

So the approach worked for me and that is not scientific data but I am sold on his products.

The mini-clubbells allow you to increase the range of motion with weight but not so much weight you cannot control it. That is the value of the five pound clubbell they add enough weight to help with the motion but (when done with what we all call common sense) they will not take it too far.

Laird has had shoulder problems for over eight years. One shoulder was almost four inches lower than the other and he was told only surgery would fix it. When he got the mini-clubbells he fell in love with how they worked his shoulders, so he ordered a pair of tens and a pair of fifteens. Within about three months he was almost pain free and his shoulders were even and level. He now works with a thirty five pound clubbell as well.

So Ian my answer is only one from my experience and Laird’s. I can’t say what they would do if something was structurally damaged but I think for rehabilitation they are an excellent tool.

Start with the Intu-Flow work on the shoulder joint then move to the mini-clubbells and then carefully move up by five pound increments. I find the jump from the mini-clubbells to even the ten pound full-size ones can be a surprise.

The recommendation for working shoulder rehabilitation is not to go above the ten pound clubbells to start.

I think if we can control our usual martial arts guy macho approach :oops: and stay with working with them using the guidelines of 3 to 4 in discomfort and no pain and working with whatever range then yes they can help with shoulder rehabilitation.
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Indian Clubs

Post by gmattson »

I've had this set for over 40 years. Picked them up in a yardsale - was told they were brought over from Europe at the turn of the last century. After Scott Sonnon began posting clips on the use of them, I pulled mine out of storage and began working out with them.
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GEM
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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Nice Pair George , very cool , they look fairly weighty
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

The interesting question for experienced athletes and trainers then gets to unique advantages of specific training regimens and optimal path to a desired end. So if it was a perfect world and we had both toys and scientists available, a number of compare-and-contrast studies would be interesting.

Intuitively speaking, I can see a number of advantages to this training modality.
  • These are open chain exercises that work multiple muscle groups. As such, the net training effect (strength plus power plus coordination) would transfer much better than with someone who is addicted to health club machines. In particular I like the potential of engaging core muscles on many movements.
  • For the most part the exercises I've seen are smooth and continuous. While there is momentum involved which takes some of the effort out of the movement, there is potentially less stress on joints. Particularly given the natural centrifugal forces involved in SOME of the exercises which pull rather than push on the joints, the wear and tear from the training is different to say the least. Variety is good. Less shear force on joint surfaces is good. There are unique stresses involved; ask any baseball pitcher or other throwing athlete. But for the most part, this seems like something both useful and safe when done as directed.
  • Any exercise junkie like me can look at those club bells and immediately see applications to forearm development. Supination, pronation, ulnar deviation, and radial deviation are exercises easily done with these toys. The key though is having an array of them available to dial up the right weight for these muscle specific exercises. However... it's worth mentioning that whole-body exercises to some extent will cover these muscles. And those - when done in the beginning of a routine - will give you the best total training effect.
  • If you squint your eyes - and I'm particularly adept at that - you can see parallels to both Chinese weapons training and to Naha area chisi training.

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    That's a particularly large variety. They are also smaller available, and they are often used in pairs.

    Basically great minds think alike. Look at the parallels, and you can learn a lot.
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Well my question would be why go back in time?...............in the 19 century they where cool.now they are not..I've tried kettlebells .and what a waste of time they were :cry: .great way to injure yourself..................what you have here is the endorsment of two guys who don't use weights :? .....................lairds shoulder is better .......................how much better would it be if he subscribed to a weight training programme :? :? .....and this is Rick's first venture into weight training....................Ian and Bill are being very politically correct and polite
......and Kudos to them for their good manners ( I notice this a lot in Americans.......and I respect them immensely for it 8) )..........but I think some objectivety is required here..........not saying all this stuff is Hocum, however. I would like a bit more science and a lots less endorsement.............from the committed :wink:
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Post by TSDguy »

Why not do them? I do a little bit of every exercise I can find. I figure 1) I won't ever wind up injuring myself that way. If it's bad to do too much of something, it doesn't matter because I'll have moved on. 2) I don't get bored. I get bored exercising very easily; it's why I can't run. Bores the hell out of me. I'd rather do a sprint, then go hop around on one of those bouncy balls kids rode in the 80s and do somersaults and then 7,000 crunches then do synchronized swimming with a wig on.

It's worked for me so far; I've never seriously (or even moderately that I can remember) injured myself from exercising.
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I agree TSD. . .

Post by gmattson »

There is a good reason why people buy so many new exercise programs and equipment. They get easily bored doing the same routine and when they quit exercises, they blame the program or equipment. Well. . . who knows, maybe the next one will work.

Hmmm, isn't that a lot like the self-defense fads that come and go every year????

It is also why I enjoy many different sports, exercises and seems that I can relate my Uechi to all of them! :)

Scott Sonnon is I suspect, like TSD and me in that regard. . . which is probably why he has created so many creative and useful programs that martial artist can benefit from.

In this "game of life", the winners will be those who not only live a long time, but who are healthy and who are capable of doing all those things they have fun doing.

When it comes to listening to advice - other than for a few doctors like Ian and Paul Haydu and of course probably the best of them all, Bill Glasheen (who I'll put in the doctor category), I don't know many healthy medical doctors. So when I look for advice on eating and exercises - bring on the real experts. . . those who "walk the walk"!
GEM
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Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Bill excellent post.

George -- VERY NICE.

But as always trust good old Ray to try and drive me off track.

This post is a correction or I doubt I would bother.

“and this is Rick's first venture into weight training”

Excuse me?

To quote my post:

“I have used barbells, and dumbbells and machines but the clubbell is different.”

Not my first time weight training Ray sorry to disappoint you. Nowhere near professional perhaps but I’ve done it most of my life since high school football, both at gyms and set ups in my home.

If you can’t hold back the personal insults please try to just ignore any threads I start.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

jorvik wrote:
Well my question would be why go back in time?
It happens all the time, Ray.

I was very enamored with the Nautilus machine craze in the 1970s. Basically they are Universal Gym machines on steroids. With the variable radius cam, you can get a nonlinear counter-force to your exercise movement. Strive - a modern version of Nautilus - takes it a step farther. You can adjust the positioning of the cam so that the peak force point is at different places for different sets. I particularly like a Strive lat machine which has been a salvation to MY shoulder problems.

However...

Wouldn't you know that a strength coach at UVa in the 1980s weaned me off the machines, and back onto traditional open-chain weight exercises. And you know what happened? I didn't just look more buff; my karate got better. Why?
  • First... multiple muscle group exercises give you a stronger anabolic (growth) effect.
  • Second, exercising outside the confines of machines that isolate your muscles is more like real-world activity. So you get a coordination benefit.
  • And finally, open chain exercises (barbells, dumbbells, club bells, kettle bells) also work the stabilizer muscles in the joints. You know... like those rotator cuff muscles that you have no idea are there until the day you tear one. Oops! :oops:
And now guess what? Somewhere in my mid 40s I realized I didn't want to be squatting obscene amounts of weight any more. As we get older, our bodies respond more slowly to the "stress" of training. (This is why so many older athletes cut corners and do steroids to stay at world class level. Can you say Roger Clemens?) So guess what I "discovered"? Olympic lifts. So did a lot of NCAA strength coaches as well. It seems that these explosive movements also work on the dynamic stretch reflex, which means more than getting buff and strong. Now you are developing power. It isn't just muscular strength; it's neuromuscular power.

Do you know how long people have been doing things like power cleans, snatches, and clean-and-jerks?
jorvik wrote:
Ian and Bill are being very politically correct and polite
......and Kudos to them for their good manners ( I notice this a lot in Americans.......and I respect them immensely for it 8) )..........but I think some objectivety is required here..........not saying all this stuff is Hocum, however. I would like a bit more science and a lots less endorsement.............from the committed :wink:
Let's be more precise here, Ray.

Ian and Bill are being open minded. We're emptying our respective cups and seeing what this is all about.

Ian never ever refuted the benefit of club bell training. He doesn't know, and freely admitted it. The only disagreement was over whether or not a statement about synovial fluid production was a scientifically validated fact. That's it.

We used aspirin for 2 generations without knowing how it worked. Now we do, and have developed many designer NSAIDs from the theory. And yet we STILL use aspirin.

And after many generations, we STILL use Lysterine (phenols). In this country, it's one of the few mouthwashes endorsed by the American Dental Association.

This is a different kind of training, Ray. People want to freeze on someone's health anecdote. I happen to think that many different kinds of exercises can help rehab a bad shoulder. I used the Strive lat machine as an example. But that very well may not be the real reason to train with club bells. When I bring my experience to bear on this, I see benefits similar to training with weapons, swinging a bat in the batting cage (I do it both right- and left-handed), similar training in Sanchin-based systems (basically a hunk of concrete on the end of a stick), etc.

Sometimes fancy and expensive isn't best. The gym where I used to teach karate and still have a membership has just upgraded to a new multimillion dollar facility. And you know what? With all the fancy new machines and the bathrooms with the chrome bowl sinks on top of flat counters, I can't get the workout I used to get at the "older" gym. The West End yuppies here with the money though are enamored with all the glitzy schit, and are signing up in droves. You know... the ones who are going to quit coming in a few months anyhow, but are still obligated to pay on the contract.

I have some advice here, Ray. Just chill a bit. This is a different kind of exercise paradigm. It has a different set of training effects. Doing it may or may not mean dropping something else you are doing.

And as you know, I'm not a "That's not Uechi!!!" kind of guy. Too much of one thing sometimes makes you lose perspective on the very thing you want to get good at. There very well may be serendipity in variety.

Empty cup; enjoy the discussion.

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

Thanks for your response, Rick. All I can say is after 4 martial arts classes in 3 days I'm sore in several places and none of them is my left AC joint or rotator cuff--so I'm pleased to have been back sparring in the JJ without difficulties, and I'm doing pushups and some dumbbells for the first time in 6 weeks, and still doing my elastic band RC work. As things progress I might feel adventurous enough to try some real weights or clubs.
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Sometimes you can be doing something in karate for decades and totally not get the optimal way to do it. A big problem I see in Uechi Ryu is what I call the "robot" Sanchin.

Sanchin done with a tucked pelvis and locked trunk is a great idea - up to about shodan maybe. And then when you start to approach that Sanseiryu animal, Okinawans in the know start talking about mochi.

Mochi is a stretchy rice dessert. Here at my sushi place, it's served wrapped around a dolop of ice cream. It has a uniquely chewy texture.

You can try and try and try to "get" that mochi in Sanseiryu. Maybe you're a "natural" athlete and you get it immediately. Maybe you started in another sport and hopefully your Uechi instructor didn't screw you up and take the caffeine out of your athletic coffee. But for many, swinging empty hands around in thin air doesn't quite cut it.

I love having people learn Seisan and Hamahiga no tonfa at the same time. With the tonfa, you are swinging something at the end of your hands (same is true for sai, Filipino sticks, etc.). You can try to do it all with your arms and maybe you feel good about it. Maybe your arms get more buff because they are being worked so hard.

And then one day you wiggle your body, and the tonfa (or sai) just flies out. Ooo... where did that come from?

Without a load on the end of your hands, most people won't get how to use the core.

Meanwhile... I've taken to going back to circle training on the mirrors and arm pounding to teach people how to make waist movement power the arms. I'll have them pay close attention to their navels, and where they are pointing.

But with weights on the ends of the hands, you don't have to talk about it so much. You can feel it. The load begs for some core muscle involvement. The more core and the less arm, the more effortless it feels.

And before you know it, you feel the mochi.

And then - God forbid - your Uechi kata movements start looking natural. You know... like all the "natural" athletes that don't know why they do what they do.

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Well my question would be why go back in time?...............in the 19 century they where cool.now they are not..I've tried kettlebells .and what a waste of time they were .great way to injure yourself..................what you have here is the endorsment of two guys who don't use weights .....................lairds shoulder is better .......................how much better would it be if he subscribed to a weight training programme .....and this is Rick's first venture into weight training....................Ian and Bill are being very politically correct and polite
......and Kudos to them for their good manners ( I notice this a lot in Americans.......and I respect them immensely for it )..........but I think some objectivety is required here..........not saying all this stuff is Hocum, however. I would like a bit more science and a lots less endorsement.............from the committed
what a crock , Ive been weightlifitng for years and am now a kettlebell addict

they work period and are safer if learnt correctly IMHO

have the lifts to back it up

just cleaned and pressed a 40 kg kettlebell single handed , thats strength devlopment in anyones language

wieght training and modern gyms have been totally influenced by the body building craze , the old time strongmen are much better examples IMHO , we should go back sometimes to go forward .

I think some so called trained folks have trouble with clubs and kettlebells strictly because they arent strong in a movment and structure sense , and have been developing in limited ranges for far to long .

functional strentgh takes a whole lot more consideration .
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

You’re welcome Ian and glad the shoulder is doing well.

Good posts and points Bill.

Any training is like martial arts -- no training has everything for everyone. CST seems to fit where my martial arts is going. I found this is working for me so put it out there as an option.

I think part of why it seems to fit for me is Scott Sonnon is a martial artist so his training and material all relate back to his martial art in some fashion. This suits me just fine.

All the best in training everyone.
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